Did Jesus die for everyone?

[traveller]

Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . .

So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me."

Amen Brother!

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Funny word - whosoever.

The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"?

All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given.

The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings?

Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS?

The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come)

I see - a limited whosoever.

[kross]

Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . .

So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me."

Amen Brother!

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Funny word - whosoever.

The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"?

All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given.

The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings?

Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS?

The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come)

I see - a limited whosoever.

"whosoever" is limitted by it's definition. Those who will not are not in the "whosoever" that will.

[legoman]

Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . .

So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me."

Amen Brother!

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Funny word - whosoever.

The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"?

All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given.

The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings?

Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS?

The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come)

I see - a limited whosoever.

Whosover could be everyone eventually.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:11 It is written:

" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.' "

Isaiah 45

22 "Turn to me and be saved,

all you ends of the earth;

for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,

my mouth has uttered in all integrity

a word that will not be revoked:

Before me every knee will bow;

by me every tongue will swear.

Cheers,

Legoman

[legoman]

I thought he paid the debt for the whole world. That is what the scripture you posted at the top said:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Sorry if you discussed this verse earlier in the thread, I didn't see it.

Cheers,

Legoman

Hi lego,

What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77?

LT

Hi LT,

I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up.

Legoman

The reason I posted it is because I thought it was clear to me what he was trying to get across. That Jesus did not die for the sins of everyone or everyone would be saved. That is to say that His death is sufficient to pay for all the sins of all the saved people. Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Scripture is clear that Jesus died for everyone. Why would he pay for the sins of those that reject him? I'm sure there is a reason. We don't simply reject the scriptures because we can't think of a reason. I posted many of the scriptures that show this in this thread:

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Jesus...rld-t97931.html

Here are some of them again:

Acts 16

30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

[OneLight]

God has stated many times in scripture the He would like every person to believe in Him and come to salvation. With this love for us, He not only sent His son into the world to die for the sins of all, but has also sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, which in turn, should lead sinners to salvation. What seems to be a point that you have trouble with is that people have to choose to listen and believe. This choice to do so is what I call free will. I am free to accept the work of God in my life or ignore it. I choose to listen to the conviction of my sins by the Holy Spirit, or I choose to harden my heart and turn away. A choice has to be made by me in order for me to be saved. I do nothing but accept what God have given freely to all, for scripture tells us Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

After one has chosen to accept the work of the Holy Spirit, and repents of their sin, His Spirit lives in them and begins the changing of their heart and mind. The Holy Spirit will not change anyone without their consent, meaning that He has to first be accepted into the lives of those seeking salvation.

God has said that anyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved (Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13). Not everyone will choose to call on the name of the Lord. This choice has to be from the one calling, not the one being called on.

[kross]

God has stated many times in scripture the He would like every person to believe in Him and come to salvation. With this love for us, He not only sent His son into the world to die for the sins of all, but has also sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, which in turn, should lead sinners to salvation. What seems to be a point that you have trouble with is that people have to choose to listen and believe. This choice to do so is what I call free will. I am free to accept the work of God in my life or ignore it. I choose to listen to the conviction of my sins by the Holy Spirit, or I choose to harden my heart and turn away. A choice has to be made by me in order for me to be saved. I do nothing but accept what God have given freely to all, for scripture tells us Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

After one has chosen to accept the work of the Holy Spirit, and repents of their sin, His Spirit lives in them and begins the changing of their heart and mind. The Holy Spirit will not change anyone without their consent, meaning that He has to first be accepted into the lives of those seeking salvation.

God has said that anyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved (Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13). Not everyone will choose to call on the name of the Lord. This choice has to be from the one calling, not the one being called on.

I read that scripture from Ephesians and it says to me that I am saved by grace, this is accomplished by the infussion of faith, which is not of myself, it is the gift of GOD, not of my choosing HIM (a work) lest I should boast that I chose HIM. Which walks hand in hand with the statement at the start of that chapter where it states (twice) HE "made" me alive when I was dead, and HE "made" me to sit in high places.

Although I do not assertain that "made" in any way infers "forced".

[larryt]

I thought he paid the debt for the whole world. That is what the scripture you posted at the top said:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Sorry if you discussed this verse earlier in the thread, I didn't see it.

Cheers,

Legoman

Hi lego,

What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77?

LT

Hi LT,

I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up.

Legoman

The reason I posted it is because I thought it was clear to me what he was trying to get across. That Jesus did not die for the sins of everyone or everyone would be saved. That is to say that His death is sufficient to pay for all the sins of all the saved people. Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Scripture is clear that Jesus died for everyone. Why would he pay for the sins of those that reject him? I'm sure there is a reason. We don't simply reject the scriptures because we can't think of a reason. I posted many of the scriptures that show this in this thread:

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Jesus...rld-t97931.html

Here are some of them again:

Acts 16

30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

[Bremerton]

For those of you unaware of the correlation between the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which happened in real time according to the Springs Feasts, I would suggest giving this a quick once over for the significance of Jesus' Jewishness:

http://biblicalholidays.com/

Jesus was Jewish and through them in particular God gave mankind a most perfect revelation of His eternal plan. Nobody can say for sure how God will deal with people who have never heard the gospel... aborted babies, natives of the jungles of Africa, Asia and South America, and everyone else who simply had never heard the gospel or received Christ in this life. We can give our opinions of what this portion of scripture means, or how this or that doctrine is better than that other doctrine or the one over there. Only a fool would claim to know the mind of God in all of His wisdom, mercy and glory.

Did Jesus die for everyone?

I think that Jesus was the fulfillment of the first part of a wonderful plan that allowed free thinking and free-willed man to become reconciled with a perfect, holy, loving and just Creator. I believe that those who have heard the truth and reject it are in for a very troubling post life event when they stand before God and give account for their lives, their rebellious and wicked hearts, and for all the souls they brought down with them. I believe it will be a terrifying event that we are scarcely able to internalize in terms of what perfect justice will look like on that day.

The good news, the gospel, is that for those who have heard and in this followed Messiah as God and King, we will be the recipients of the wonders of God's mercy, grace and unmerited favor. It truly is good news. The best news mankind has ever received.

To top all that off God gave us the Holy Spirit as a helper, guide and comforter until He comes again and fulfills all things. I believe that the Fall Feasts can tell us much of what is to come, but it doesn't doing any good to obsess over something that is nothing but good news for us. The dates might be interesting to know, but we've been told in no uncertain terms that we wont know exactly when this happens. In the mean time all we need to do is to tell as many people as we can the good news.

Telling people that they are going to burn in hell forever is not telling someone the good news of Jesus Christ. We don't know who God will judge, when, how long and a thousand other details that are beyond our control and frankly not very important. We were instructed to spread the word, not spread hate and fear.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Bremerton

[OneLight]

God has stated many times in scripture the He would like every person to believe in Him and come to salvation. With this love for us, He not only sent His son into the world to die for the sins of all, but has also sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, which in turn, should lead sinners to salvation. What seems to be a point that you have trouble with is that people have to choose to listen and believe. This choice to do so is what I call free will. I am free to accept the work of God in my life or ignore it. I choose to listen to the conviction of my sins by the Holy Spirit, or I choose to harden my heart and turn away. A choice has to be made by me in order for me to be saved. I do nothing but accept what God have given freely to all, for scripture tells us Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

After one has chosen to accept the work of the Holy Spirit, and repents of their sin, His Spirit lives in them and begins the changing of their heart and mind. The Holy Spirit will not change anyone without their consent, meaning that He has to first be accepted into the lives of those seeking salvation.

God has said that anyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved (Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13). Not everyone will choose to call on the name of the Lord. This choice has to be from the one calling, not the one being called on.

I read that scripture from Ephesians and it says to me that I am saved by grace, this is accomplished by the infussion of faith, which is not of myself, it is the gift of GOD, not of my choosing HIM (a work) lest I should boast that I chose HIM. Which walks hand in hand with the statement at the start of that chapter where it states (twice) HE "made" me alive when I was dead, and HE "made" me to sit in high places.

Although I do not assertain that "made" in any way infers "forced".

I read this verse as follows:

For by grace you have been saved - Through an unearned and unmerited favor from God, God gave us His Son when we were sinners (Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.) for the purpose of saving us sinners.

through faith - I have to accepted, and believe in, the work that Jesus did for all mankind when He died on the cross for the sins of the world, rose again after three days and is now sitting at the right hand of God. (Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.)

and that not of yourselves - there is nothing that I could do that would take place of what Jesus did for me, for I can not save myself.

it is the gift of God - John 3:16-17 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

not of works - I can not earn my salvation through anything I do. Salvation comes by believing (having faith in) the works of Jesus.

lest anyone should boast - Boasting that I am saved because I have faith in Jesus would nullify salvation, for it is the work that Jesus did that saves, not my faith in him. I have faith that my car will stop when I apply my brakes, but it is the brakes that stop the car, not my faith.

It is sad that you think that our faith in Him is a work.

As for the first part of the chapter, it is the result of salvation. If we do not accept salvation, God will not "make" us sit in high places or to be one with Christ.

[kross]

God has stated many times in scripture the He would like every person to believe in Him and come to salvation. With this love for us, He not only sent His son into the world to die for the sins of all, but has also sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, which in turn, should lead sinners to salvation. What seems to be a point that you have trouble with is that people have to choose to listen and believe. This choice to do so is what I call free will. I am free to accept the work of God in my life or ignore it. I choose to listen to the conviction of my sins by the Holy Spirit, or I choose to harden my heart and turn away. A choice has to be made by me in order for me to be saved. I do nothing but accept what God have given freely to all, for scripture tells us Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

After one has chosen to accept the work of the Holy Spirit, and repents of their sin, His Spirit lives in them and begins the changing of their heart and mind. The Holy Spirit will not change anyone without their consent, meaning that He has to first be accepted into the lives of those seeking salvation.

God has said that anyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved (Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13). Not everyone will choose to call on the name of the Lord. This choice has to be from the one calling, not the one being called on.

I read that scripture from Ephesians and it says to me that I am saved by grace, this is accomplished by the infussion of faith, which is not of myself, it is the gift of GOD, not of my choosing HIM (a work) lest I should boast that I chose HIM. Which walks hand in hand with the statement at the start of that chapter where it states (twice) HE "made" me alive when I was dead, and HE "made" me to sit in high places.

Although I do not assertain that "made" in any way infers "forced".

I read this verse as follows:

For by grace you have been saved - Through an unearned and unmerited favor from God, God gave us His Son when we were sinners (Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.) for the purpose of saving us sinners.

through faith - I have to accepted, and believe in, the work that Jesus did for all mankind when He died on the cross for the sins of the world, rose again after three days and is now sitting at the right hand of God. (Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.)

and that not of yourselves - there is nothing that I could do that would take place of what Jesus did for me, for I can not save myself.

it is the gift of God - John 3:16-17 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

not of works - I can not earn my salvation through anything I do. Salvation comes by believing (having faith in) the works of Jesus.

lest anyone should boast - Boasting that I am saved because I have faith in Jesus would nullify salvation, for it is the work that Jesus did that saves, not my faith in him. I have faith that my car will stop when I apply my brakes, but it is the brakes that stop the car, not my faith.

It is sad that you think that our faith in Him is a work.

As for the first part of the chapter, it is the result of salvation. If we do not accept salvation, God will not "make" us sit in high places or to be one with Christ.

That is one of the reasons there will always be a difference in interpretation of scripture. To me, it is by the unmeritted favor of GOD that I was given faith.

Although, I will never really comprehend the idea of dead people giving themselves life. If it says "HE MADE US ALIVE WHO WERE DEAD..." I am inclined to think HE did it.

But hey, this has been a debate for thousands of years and will be until we are gone.