Did Jesus die for everyone?

[kross]

I edited this to include that before we accepted salvation, we had simple faith that God exists, through creation, for God made himself known to everyone through His creation, as stated in Romans 1:19-20 - "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,". After salvation, this faith, like everything else in us, is changed by the studying of His word, the bible, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Yet, even though He made Himself known to everyone, not all accept Him, which is what Romans 1 is speaking of. The fact that we have to accept Him and that we are just not chosen by Him is seen in this scripture, where it states "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

God has given every man enough faith to embrace His word and to recieve a love for the truth that they might be saved.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as

God hath dealt

to every man

the measure of faith

.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

.

First of all, your understanding of "every man" seems to ignor that Paul is referring to "every man amoung you" Meaning every man amoung those he wrote the letter to.

Your second scripture states they did not "Recieve" the love of truth. Recieve it from whom?

This is why I stated in another thread that I'm in the middle road... for now... between God's will and man's will.

I remember back when, through mysterious and amazing events, I was powerfully "drawn" or "dragged" to the knowledge of God and His salvation. Up until that point in my life, I NEVER once thought of Him. I never once even CARED to come to Him. In fact, I thought Christians were Dudley-Do-Rights who were entirely off their rocker. So....... I realize, somewhat now, how depraved I was. At the time, I definitely fit the bill for there is none righteous... none who seeketh God. I didn't understand and I was most assuredly going astray!

I have to wonder then whether or not I had anything to do with my eventual conversion. I for one believe I was CALLED. After reading a lot of debates at WCF about this topic, I have been thinking... could I have resisted, left the preacher's office and went on my way because it was still up to ME? Possibly but the magnetic pull was so strong!

I heard a preacher tell a story once about a man who came to his services for awhile who seemed to progressively show signs of conviction. At first, the man was fidgeting in his pew at the invitation to give his heart to the Lord. At other times, he would sweat profusely and look very frightened. Lastly, the man was seen digging his fingernails into the back of the pew in front of him as if trying to hang on and not go forward. In fact, he said the man left scratches in the wood revealing how hard he was fighting! I'd be lying if I said I could remember whether or not the man ever gave in and accepted the CALL!

Let's say he never did give in. Would that prove that God was calling him because he was one of the elect? Could his will have resisted God to the point of his being forever lost?

Well, what would make you feel better? Was GOD so in love with you that HE would dare to orchestrate your situation and life so that you would be where you needed to be, when you needed to be there, in order to be saved, or that you just happened to hear the right thing at the right time and that you are nothing special to Him. (IF EVERYONE IS SPECIAL, THAN NO ONE IS SPECIAL)

[Anne]

not trying to put a spanner in the works

I voted for the fourth one

I reckon God knew His own from the start

[BlindSeeker]

And with all of that, the scriture in John 3:16 refers to "Whosoever will" which, by the nature of the phrase does not include the "whosoever won't". I am sorry to ask this question because I can see that thou art a learned man of some study, do you not see that most of the uses of the word have a qualifier? "whosoever" makes himself a king is an enemy of Cesar, does indicate that only those who make themselves a king make themselve an enemy of Cesar. It doesn't refer to everybody is an enemy.

In additon, John 3:16 is part of a teaching that men will not come to the light, thus the offer is estabished by scripture to be rejected by men. This "whosoever" is nullified in the context of the teaching. In addition, JESUS finishes the teaching and states that those who do come, come to show that their deeds have been "wrought in GOD"

So, are their deeds "wrought" in themselves or are they "Wrought in GOD"?

John 3:16 has become the catch all for many doctrins when removed from context, but in context JESUS says that a person "Must be born of the SPIRIT" before he will see truth and turn to CHRIST. Because this is a spiritual act and a spiritually dead person will not "recieve" the truth. Thus, his works must be "Wrought in GOD" for he cannot/will not do it himself.

As we can derive from my previous post, John 3:15 could be translated multiple ways

[BlindSeeker]

Well, what would make you feel better? Was GOD so in love with you that HE would dare to orchestrate your situation and life so that you would be where you needed to be, when you needed to be there, in order to be saved, or that you just happened to hear the right thing at the right time and that you are nothing special to Him. (IF EVERYONE IS SPECIAL, THAN NO ONE IS SPECIAL)

God does not need to "orchestrate your situation and life so that you would be where you needed to be, when you needed to be there, in order to be saved," because God is sovereign. Do you really think it is the way you present or it has to be just by chance?

Your statement sounds like it is a multiple choice test with A, B, C, or D . . . but the fact is it is probably X, Y, or Z. You have limited God because of your own finite understanding.

[BlindSeeker]

I edited this to include that before we accepted salvation, we had simple faith that God exists, through creation, for God made himself known to everyone through His creation, as stated in Romans 1:19-20 - "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,". After salvation, this faith, like everything else in us, is changed by the studying of His word, the bible, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Yet, even though He made Himself known to everyone, not all accept Him, which is what Romans 1 is speaking of. The fact that we have to accept Him and that we are just not chosen by Him is seen in this scripture, where it states "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

God has given every man enough faith to embrace His word and to receive a love for the truth that they might be saved.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as

God hath dealt

to every man

the measure of faith

.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

.

(1.) First of all, your understanding of "every man" seems to ignor that Paul is referring to "every man amoung you" Meaning every man amoung those he wrote the letter to.

(2.) Your second scripture states they did not "Recieve" the love of truth. Recieve it from whom?

First, I am not ignoring that Paul is writing to the people of Rome, I am simply not limiting his statement about a measure of faith to only those among them.

We can see from Jesus

[Anne]

seems very simple when you put it like that blind

but considering other peoples lives and situations perhaps it is not

your sister in Jesus

Anne

[Bremerton]

Just a suggestion...

Leave out the quotes to other people if you can. This is one of the hardest threads I've ever tried to follow because there is about one sentence of meaningful reply to about 6 inches of quotes.

[Isaiah-smiles]

Sorry for being out of the loop for awhile, but while I was scanning the subject being discussed I was curious as to why Romans 9 was not in the discussion? Of course, Paul is talking about his people after the flesh (his kinsmen), who are lost through their rejection of the gospel. And goes to explain; "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethhttp://www.worthychristianforums.com/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif' alt=':rolleyes:'> 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Now did I read this right? God hated Esau? Or is somebody going to try and explain it away?

What about when Paul writes the same question that would ordinarily be on someone's mind after hearing this hard speech. What is Paul's reaction?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,(did you read that? God's purpose or reason for hardening Pharoah's heart was to show His Power) that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (here is another question that you might ask concerning this subject)19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (and the answer?)20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

What is election? And who does the choosing? Throughout the New Testament we sometimes hear the word adoption. When a Husband and wife chooses to adopt, who's choice is it? Jesus even compared the spiritual birth with the physical birth or to be born again is a term you use pertaining to salvation. When you born physically, was it your decision?

You have to have faith to receive the gospel, but who gives that faith? There is nothing that you have that was not given to you.

Jesus answered them, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." It was no mistake on Jesus part when he even chose Judas, the purpose for choosing Judas was so that the Lord would be betrayed and fulfill the redemptive plan that He and the Father had before the foundation of the world.

In (matt. 20:24) Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: "21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (if Jesus, having the foreknowledge that they would have repented, then why didn't He as God, have miracles and mighty works done in Tyre and Sidon so that they would have repented instead of eventually being judged of God. Same thing is said of Sodom.)22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

In a nut shell; 1. God chose you before the foundation of the world, before you had any choice. He knew you according to His foreknowledge. There will be some who will say LORD, LORD, but He will say "I never knew you" And foreknowledge is not just a mere ability to see in the future like some psyic, but rather, He is involved in every fascet of your life. Remember the parable of Jesus about how the shephard left the 99 and went after the one.

2. He called you. His Holy Spirit is the one who comes to you and convicts you of sin so that the Father may Draw you to His Son who

paid the penalty.

3. He gave you Faith. Through His calling and conviction He gave you faith to beleive in the gospel of what Christ has done for you.

4. He gave you His Spirit. Not only as a downpayment of whats to come, but He gave/sent the Holy Spirit in order for you to get to know

the Father and Son in a more intimate fellowship.

[OneLight]

I agree with all of that talk about faith. The only question between what you believe and what I believe is where does that faith come from? Us or HIM?

Faith does come from the LORD. I have never indicated otherwise, and if my words led you to believe this, then I have failed to express my beliefs properly.

The difference that I have noticed is that you believe God gave this faith to some and I believe He gave faith to everyone. You believe that the "some" are the only ones that could ever be saved and I believe that everyone could be saved, but some choose not to believe. You believe that there is a number "elected" or "predestined" for salvation and I believe that Jesus died so all could be saved.

Your belief removes all responsibility from the believer to believe. Mine places the responsibility of accepting Christ on the person, which is not saying that we are saved by works, as you claim, but that we are responsible for accepting what Christ did for us. I believe that man can harden their hearts toward God, as spoken many time sin scripture. Your belief removes this possibility because how can one reject God? If God chose you, there is no decision on your part.

Have I got it right?

[BlindSeeker]

"12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Now did I read this right? God hated Esau? Or is somebody going to try and explain it away?

Perhaps you can start by showing exactly where Esau served Jacob . . . then we can begin to explain it . . . since Jacob was never over Esau, nor was Esau ever subject to him. On the contrary, Jacob subjected himself to Esau because he afraid of him. Jacob even acknowledged his brother to be his lord and humbled himself to be Esau's servant.

So, go ahead . . . explain it.

Ge 32:3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.

4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto

my lord Esau

; Thy

servant Jacob

saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:

5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.

Ge 33:4 And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

5 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given thy servant.

6 Then the handmaidens came near, they and their children, and they bowed themselves.

7 And Leah also with her children came near, and bowed themselves: and after came Joseph near and Rachel, and they bowed themselves.

8 And he said, What meanest thou by all this drove which I met? And he said, These are to find grace in the sight of my lord.

9 And Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself.

10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

11 Take, I pray thee, my blessing that is brought to thee; because God hath dealt graciously with me, and because I have enough. And he urged him, and he took it.

12 And he said, Let us take our journey, and let us go, and I will go before thee.

13 And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die.

14 Let my lord, I pray thee, pass over before his servant: and I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, until I come unto my lord unto Seir.

15 And Esau said, Let me now leave with thee some of the folk that are with me. And he said, What needeth it? let me find grace in the sight of my lord.

16 So Esau returned that day on his way unto Seir.