How is it...?

[Guest shiloh357]

your argument of opposites does not make sense God's glory does not need evil to shine as in clear in Revelation and here as well:

1 John: 5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Again you are correct.

GOD didn't need to make vessels for dishonor. HE didn't need to create the wicked. (Romans 921-22 and Prov 16:4)

HE just decided to. It served HIS purpose to do so.

You obviously don't grasp what Paul means by vessels of honor and dishonor. God does not create people to be wicked.

Paul is talking about people who are used for more noble purposes verses those who are used for less noble purposes. That is why Paul uses the potter and the clay metaphor. A potter can use clay to make an exquisite vase as a lobby showroom piece or he can take the same clay and make a cereal bowl. It is up to the discretion and will of potter. In the same way God uses some people for greater, more noble purposes, and others he uses for more mundane purposes.

The metaphor is "creates" for "the day of destruction". That is what it says. Creates vessels to show HIS wrath and they are fitted by GOD for destruction.

The text does not say that God fits anyone for destruction. That is presupposition you are reading into the text.

[RebekahDavid]

once again

God created for His pleasure what He hates is not His pleasure He hates sin.

Proverbs 6

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

i think this is the commentary you need to pray about kross. it is clear God hates sin

[kross]

Paul was the chiefest of sinners and yet not to far gone to be saved by the sovereign will of GOD. Yet you say that GOD decides these are beyond saving so HE hardens their hearts to keep that from changing?

No I did not say that. What I said is that God used their hardness after they have proven that they are impenitent and unwilling to budge. I did not say God decided anyone was beyond saving. Again, you can't seem to respond without making up things I never said and then attributing to me.

Why would HE have to harden their hearts if they were already so hardened that they could not be saved?

God's hardening was indirect. God did not purpose or orchestrate their response.

If this is so, GOD decreed that HE would harden their hearts. So HE still corrupted their free will, and in such a way that they could only do evil from then on. This in accordance with HIS wil and purpose.

[kross]

your argument of opposites does not make sense God's glory does not need evil to shine as in clear in Revelation and here as well:

1 John: 5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Again you are correct.

GOD didn't need to make vessels for dishonor. HE didn't need to create the wicked. (Romans 921-22 and Prov 16:4)

HE just decided to. It served HIS purpose to do so.

You obviously don't grasp what Paul means by vessels of honor and dishonor. God does not create people to be wicked.

Paul is talking about people who are used for more noble purposes verses those who are used for less noble purposes. That is why Paul uses the potter and the clay metaphor. A potter can use clay to make an exquisite vase as a lobby showroom piece or he can take the same clay and make a cereal bowl. It is up to the discretion and will of potter. In the same way God uses some people for greater, more noble purposes, and others he uses for more mundane purposes.

The metaphor is "creates" for "the day of destruction". That is what it says. Creates vessels to show HIS wrath and they are fitted by GOD for destruction.

The text does not say that God fits anyone for destruction. That is presupposition you are reading into the text.

You are reading in a presupposition that GOD does not harden hearts and that HE does not create vessels for dishonor, and you are telling me I am reading in a presupposition?

Any well studied person would know that the scripture in question and the original text refer to them as "fitted" for destruction. This means that they are created for this purpose.

If you see a jewel fit for a queen, than it is good for that purpose. If it is "fitted" for a queen, than it is created for that purpose. The greek clearly teaches created/fitted by the creator.

[kross]

once again

God created for His pleasure what He hates is not His pleasure He hates sin.

Proverbs 6

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

i think this is the commentary you need to pray about kross. it is clear God hates sin

Absolutely GOD hates sin. But it is the definition of a necessary evil. OK, not necessary, GOD just created and uses all of creation for HIS purposes.

[Guest shiloh357]

Those of us who do not think and just believe what the Bible states perfectly clearly, would not change what the Bible says to agree with what we want to believe.

The problem is that it is you who are trying to make the Bible fit your beliefs. It is because you refuse to think, that you are the antithesis of what the Bible holds up as a person of understanding. The Bible puts a high premium on intelligence, wisdom and understanding.

When the Bible states that GOD raised him up for this purpose, then GOD planned for Pharoah to be exactly what he was for the time GOD wanted him to be thus.

If you actually read the text, it is AFTER Pharoah has rejected the mercy of God that God "raised him up" for the purpose of showing HIS power. God did not bring Pharoah into the world to destroy Him. That is not what the text says.

The heart of the king is in GOD's hand to do as HE wishes. If the king sins, sins come from the heart, who has control the heart?

That is just another of your perversions of Scripture. It is found in Proverbs 21:1 and it is simply a general statement about God's providence, and that He guides Kings and that He is able to use even Kings for His purpose. A proverb is a general truth. It does not mean that every thought or action the King performs is done because God forced it to happen. That goes beyond the scope and intent of what was written.

Of course, that is not thinking. That is just taking what the Bible says and believing it.

It is neither thinking nor belief. It is taking the Bible, misquoting it and mispresenting the intentions of the author in order to substantiate false doctrine as you continue to bear false witness against God.

[Guest shiloh357]

You are reading in a presupposition that GOD does not harden hearts and that HE does not create vessels for dishonor, and you are telling me I am reading in a presupposition?

I did not say that. I said you don't understand what honor and dishonor mean as Paul used them. Honor and dishonor refer to purpose and service that the vessels are made to perform. I already acknowlegded that God creates different people for more or less noble purposes. Again, you are continuing to lie about what I say or don't say.

Any well studied person would know that the scripture in question and the original text refer to them as "fitted" for destruction. This means that they are created for this purpose.

No that is not what the text says. Not even Calvinist commentators who generally agree with your position state that God fitted anyone to destruction. They are very careful to pont out that the text does not indicate that God fits people or creates them for destruction, but it is their impenitent character that makes them fit for destruction. It is not a destruction that God brings upon them but that destruction is sad consequence of their refusal to humble themselves. The fit themselves for destruction, for in attempting to break God's law, they simply broke themselves against it.

If you see a jewel fit for a queen, than it is good for that purpose. If it is "fitted" for a queen, than it is created for that purpose. The greek clearly teaches created/fitted by the creator.

The Greek does not bear that out at all, and not in that context. The word for fitted does indicate a created purpose. Rather it is katērtismena and denotes a state of readiness. Those who reject God have prepared themselves for the destruction that awaits their disobedience.

[larryt]

your argument of opposites does not make sense God's glory does not need evil to shine as in clear in Revelation and here as well:

1 John: 5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Again you are correct.

GOD didn't need to make vessels for dishonor. HE didn't need to create the wicked. (Romans 921-22 and Prov 16:4)

HE just decided to. It served HIS purpose to do so.

You obviously don't grasp what Paul means by vessels of honor and dishonor. God does not create people to be wicked.

Paul is talking about people who are used for more noble purposes verses those who are used for less noble purposes. That is why Paul uses the potter and the clay metaphor. A potter can use clay to make an exquisite vase as a lobby showroom piece or he can take the same clay and make a cereal bowl. It is up to the discretion and will of potter. In the same way God uses some people for greater, more noble purposes, and others he uses for more mundane purposes.

That is an amazing twisting of scripture. Right after the passage on honour and dishonour Paul defines what these are by saying they are vessels of WRATH & vessels of MERCY.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

LT

[kross]

You are reading in a presupposition that GOD does not harden hearts and that HE does not create vessels for dishonor, and you are telling me I am reading in a presupposition?

I did not say that. I said you don't understand what honor and dishonor mean as Paul used them. Honor and dishonor refer to purpose and service that the vessels are made to perform. I already acknowlegded that God creates different people for more or less noble purposes. Again, you are continuing to lie about what I say or don't say.

Any well studied person would know that the scripture in question and the original text refer to them as "fitted" for destruction. This means that they are created for this purpose.

No that is not what the text says. Not even Calvinist commentators who generally agree with your position state that God fitted anyone to destruction. They are very careful to pont out that the text does not indicate that God fits people or creates them for destruction, but it is their impenitent character that makes them fit for destruction. It is not a destruction that God brings upon them but that destruction is sad consequence of their refusal to humble themselves. The fit themselves for destruction, for in attempting to break God's law, they simply broke themselves against it.

If you see a jewel fit for a queen, than it is good for that purpose. If it is "fitted" for a queen, than it is created for that purpose. The greek clearly teaches created/fitted by the creator.

The Greek does not bear that out at all, and not in that context. The word for fitted does indicate a created purpose. Rather it is katērtismena and denotes a state of readiness. Those who reject God have prepared themselves for the destruction that awaits their disobedience.

The person whom I occassionally discuss scripture with, who reads and writes and speaks greek, disagrees with you. I know that will not matter. But he did give me this simple explaination.

"The definite article used as the root of the word used for fitted is masculine in the context of this structure. Thus the most appropriate understanding would be;

"...Perfectly put together for destruction" although the word destruction would better be stated "cut off"

[Guest shiloh357]

your argument of opposites does not make sense God's glory does not need evil to shine as in clear in Revelation and here as well:

1 John: 5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Again you are correct.

GOD didn't need to make vessels for dishonor. HE didn't need to create the wicked. (Romans 921-22 and Prov 16:4)

HE just decided to. It served HIS purpose to do so.

You obviously don't grasp what Paul means by vessels of honor and dishonor. God does not create people to be wicked.

Paul is talking about people who are used for more noble purposes verses those who are used for less noble purposes. That is why Paul uses the potter and the clay metaphor. A potter can use clay to make an exquisite vase as a lobby showroom piece or he can take the same clay and make a cereal bowl. It is up to the discretion and will of potter. In the same way God uses some people for greater, more noble purposes, and others he uses for more mundane purposes.

That is an amazing twisting of scripture. Right after the passage on honour and dishonour Paul defines what these are by saying they are vessels of WRATH & vessels of MERCY.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

LT

Here is the first problem, Larry. Those who support predestination have attempted say that I misrepresent their position in that they do not claim that God predestines anyone to hell.

If you take Paul to mean that "vessels fitted to destruction" refers to God creating them and fitting them to that end, then you must recant your position that God doesn't predestine people to hell. Paul does not say God is the one responsible for making them vessels of wrath or mercy.

Now for the second problem:

Romans chapter nine has nothing to do with who is or is not created to be saved. That is not even in Paul's mind. Romans 9, 10 and 11 are about what the Church's posture should be toward Israel and the Jewish people in the light of the salvation Gentiles have access to by grace through faith by which Israel was the vehicle through which this salvation entered into the world.

Paul is defending the justice of God in hardening some of the Jewish people in order to show His power, which is why Paul borrows from the story of Pharoah. God, in His sovereignty is free to use whom He chooses in order to bring His will to fruition. God is not the source of their disobedience and is not party to their sin, but like Pharoah, they end up being given over to their sin and it becomes their own undoing.

"Honor" and "dishonor" do not correspond to "vessels of wrath" and "vessels of mercy." Paul uses the potter and his right as the potter to make any vessel he wants to serve any pupose He chooses as an illustration of God's sovereignty. Just as the potter can fashion the clay to be an equisite vase or he can make it to be a bed pan. Paul's position is that in the same way God can use an incorrigible person like the Pharoah and force to him to an issue he did not want to meet. God does not force Pharoah to respond as He did, but God knowing the end from the beginning, in His sovereignty used Pharoah to show His power and in the same way also used Moses as a vessel through which He could shows His grace and mercy. In the lives of both Pharoah and Moses, we find God showing how He uses those who reject His will vs. those who submit to it.

Romans 9 does not teach that some people are created by God and brought into the world by Him to be destroyed. That is not in keeping with how reveals Himself in Scripture.

When Paul refers to them as vessels of wrath, He is referring to people who are under God's wrath due to their own actions. They, like all sinners live under God's judgment 24/7. Believers are under God's grace 24/7. Being fitted to wrath does not mean from the Greek that they are created to be destroyed, but that by their own disobedience, they have made themselves fit for destruction as vessels who are already under God's wrath.