Genesis 6:1-4

[irishcowboy]

Blessings to all my brothers and sisters. I have decided to take the step of actually reading the bible from front to back and really study it this year. I have broke it down to 4 chapters a day. So far so good. I am using a commentary online by Matthew Henry. I am using Gateway to help me read and study. So far I have been able to understand what I have been studying. Then today I came across this scripture (see below please) and I have no idea what the meaning is in it. Also what Nephilim truly are. (are they giants truly or not) And who are the sons of God? And the mighty men, who are they? Please help. I really am trying to learn and grow. I have looked in other commentaries and none could explain or help. Hoping for some enlightenment. Thank you for your patience and time.

May the Lord ever be with you all.

In His Loving Hands,

Sister in Christ

Anne (MeMa)

Genesis 6:1-4 (English Standard Version)

Genesis 6

Increasing Corruption on Earth

1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,

2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

3Then the LORD said,(A) "My Spirit shall not abide in[a] man forever,(B) for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years."

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

if you plan on finishing in one year, your reading the Word will be about 15 + minutes a day ( 5 min a day in the N.T. will get you through it in one year, and 10 min a day in the O.T. will get you through the old in one year....) it takes about 80 hours of constant reading to complete the entire Bible..... some people would take longer, some shorter... keep going, seems like a lot of reading, but can be done.... dont worry about not making it, just stay in it....

mike

[exrockstar]

If they are not really part of divine sons of God then how do you explain the verses that say 'angels that kept not their first estate' and if 'God spared not the angels? Are they just the verses then explaining satans downfall? If that is the case then tell me how they changed after rebelling, then didn't somehow change what they were, their substance just their status with God. In Psalms 82 it shows God talking to whom, Himself? And if those God is talking to are in His divine council, does that mean that God took men up to His presence which if I am not mistaken God cannot abide the presence of sin and no man on this earth is without sin. If satan the most glorified divine son of God can sin, change his statis, create the problems he does then how cannot these sons of God in Gen. and elsewhere in the bible cannot do as it says. There is no real evidence these are the sons of seth, Augustine promoted that version if I am not mistaken. The book of Jasher and Enoch, though both extra biblical, state they were angels of God. The JPS translation calls them 'the divine beings' when have men been called that by God? The tale of when Noah was born and they saw him open his eyes and they shown like one of the divine beings and they were afraid he was an offspring is another example the ancient hebrews knew about this. In the book of Jubilees also talks of the watchers going against the law of their ordinances. Also in the LXX labels them in two ways, the later mss translates Due. 32:7 as "angels of God" as aggelon theou but in several earlier mss has it as huion theou, or 'sons of God' but nowhere does it say they were the sons of Seth. Now I am not any scholar as some here but after studying on this for some time this is what I have found, and the sons of seth theory I have never been able to prove in the bible.

people that choose to say that "the 'fallen ones' are from Seth" never mention why GOD would call men those men "sons." They will say that "the authors in those times used certain terms....." We are quick to forget those authors are guided by the Holy Spirit and when God speaks then it it TRUTH.

This all boils down to a word study.

With a word study one can see that "sons of God" in Hebrew is beni-ha-Elohim. This word has also been used to describe angels never mortals.

People are quick to jump away from even thinking that angels could procreate. Don't argue with the thought but rather look into the word study.

Afterall, what kind of people would Christians be if we actually thought that angels could procreate? it's sounds like something out of this world?!

We can grasp a talking snake a couple of chapters prior because that makes more sense?

word study

[exrockstar]

people that choose to say that "the 'fallen ones' are from Seth" never mention why GOD would call men those men "sons."

I have yet to see any one claim ''The Fallen ones'' Or Nephilim or Giants as the Bible calls them, were descendants of Seth.

correction: people that choose to say that "the 'fallen ones' are from kings, rulers or great warriors" but never mention why GOD would call men those men "sons of Elohim."

wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

[mizzdy]

These are not easy Scriptures, and have been the subject of debate, conjecture and subsequent opposing views by numerous scholars, theologians, pastors and disciples.

I am with Shiloh on this, and have never thought it possible that there was some sort of chimera created by the fusion of a spiritual being with a fleshly being...in spite of the Scriptures used to support such a view...and people like Chuck Missler who are very convincing in their presentation.

The reasons I don't believe it are firstly...it doesn't witness in my spirit (subjective I know...but that is my spirit-gut-reaction)

Secondly we all understand that there can be no cross-fertilisation from one species to another...everything can only pro-create within the confines of its own kind...therfore you can cross a lion with a tiger and produce ligers and tigons, but you cannot cross a cat with a dog in the hope of producing a cog or a dat.

A spiritual being such as an angel...whether it is a fallen angel or not...is not only a different species, but of an entirely different substance (at least as far as I can work out)....Paul writing to the Corinthians touches on this...

1Corin 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

My understanding is not that Satan tried to prevent Messiah arriving through inseminating mankind with demon seed....but rather that he sought to corrupt the heart of man on a grand scale...man had fallen through Adam and eventually became desperately wicked...but even though G-d destroyed billions of people (it is estimated that at the time of the flood there were quite possibly several billion people living on the earth), He preserved a remnant through which to establish His name.

In the first batch, the rot really set in with Cain....in the second batch, Ham was singled out....and yet through it all we can trace an unbroken line that G-d preserved that led to our salvation through His Son our Messiah.

Botz,

First I would like to thank you for not posting back to me with the usual responses about how silly I am, nothing you say is right, all those wonderful words that cut people to the quick! I understand all you have written and took that stance for years until I spent time in the words and phrasing. Yet as you posted it doesn't witness in your spirit and I respect that. I myself do not believe in their spirit form they could procreate but I also firmly believe their knowledge makes our human knowledge look like gnats buzzing randomly around someones head. So I do believe they can use what God created and create for themselves a body that they could inhabit. Understanding that each kind created after each kind yet the offspring wasn't exactly kosher either since human beings do not produce giants such as they produced, have you ever seen the bones of the giants that have been uncovered across the globle? some of the skulls are four feet tall!! That shows me that those offspring were not quite human in appearance. Too many dismiss out of hand or with some sort of knowledge that these sons of God, for that is what they are called in the bible in more than one scripture, can do what they wish or that they do not exist. I don't believe in some demon seed theology either just for the record. And I have yet to figure out if this specific group of sons of God were with satan when he fell, they could have been a group who stayed with God but wanted to go with satan and left their first estate some time after satan but the bible doesn't tell us that. Something that I came across just this weekend and have not had time to look into it but the phrase that says 'they started calling on the name of God' could mean they cursed or profane and it has been pointed out to me by many that this was the phrase that proves the line of seth theory but as I said I need to look into that. I like Chuck Missler myself even if some of what he preaches goes against what I believe. A lot of my research is within Michael Heisers work on the divine council but not entirely since I do study with many others. I am not here to argue my point at all, I just don't do that but I will discuss with others what I believe and why. My questions about the flood started very young as mosts do and why God felt He needed to destroy the entire world, plants, animals and humans if it was only humans that were corrupted. Doesn't make sense at all to me and to most either.

[mizzdy]

people that choose to say that "the 'fallen ones' are from Seth" never mention why GOD would call men those men "sons." They will say that "the authors in those times used certain terms....." We are quick to forget those authors are guided by the Holy Spirit and when God speaks then it it TRUTH.

This all boils down to a word study.

With a word study one can see that "sons of God" in Hebrew is beni-ha-Elohim. This word has also been used to describe angels never mortals.

People are quick to jump away from even thinking that angels could procreate. Don't argue with the thought but rather look into the word study.

Afterall, what kind of people would Christians be if we actually thought that angels could procreate? it's sounds like something out of this world?!

We can grasp a talking snake a couple of chapters prior because that makes more sense?

word study

In Job 1 talks about the sons of God came to present themselves to the Lord and satan was amoung them, should we then take this to mean mere men came into Gods presence even when everywhere in the bible says that does not happen. Job 38 shows there are indeed sons ofGod who shouted for joy, the translations for that is also beney 'elohim. Many don't believe an actual snake spoke to Eve tho some do really think a real snake did! The meaning of the word snake can also mean shiny one, brilliant in appearance. To me if lucifer and one third of the angels can rebel against God certainly they and others are capable of finding a way to procreate with humans. I can't remember off hand but does it say anywhere in scriptures that the angels were not created in the likeness of God or that they were created in His likeness?

[mizzdy]

If they are not really part of divine sons of God then how do you explain the verses that say 'angels that kept not their first estate' and if 'God spared not the angels? Are they just the verses then explaining satans downfall?

First of all, angels are not divine. They are supernatural, but the are not divine. "Divine" is a term that belongs to God only.

In Psalms 82 it shows God talking to whom, Himself?

Just because the term "sons of God" is used to refer to angels in Ps. 82, does NOT mean that the term must also refer to angels in Gen. 6. That is not how it works.

Citing extra-biblical sources doesn't change the fact that angels, in the Bible are neither divine, nor do they pro-create.

The word divine came from the JPS translation of the Tanakh so please inform them they are wrong in their wordings. So when I say that God is talking to Himself in Ps. 82 its ok with you but if I say God is talking to His divine council, His sons of God I am somehow wrong. This is how the JPS Tanakh shows the wording of Ps. 82

1. God stands in the divine assembly; 2. amoung divine beings He pronounces judgement....6. I had taken you for divine beings, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7. but you shall die as men do, fall like any prince.

Ok looking at the last verse why would God tell them they are going to die as men if they already are men? Tell me why then does the words get translated as divine beings calling them sons of the most high, men were never called that from what I have read.

The NKJV has it this way:

1. God stands in the congregation of the mighty; 2. He judges amoung the gods.... 6. I said, You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High. 7. But you shall die like men; And fall like one of the princes.

There seems to be some confusion then about men and falling like the princes which are mere men but the ones God is addressing are angels, sons of God. The same translation here as in Gen. 6 elhoim/mighty ones or gods. What does bene 'elohim mean to you? I believe I read somwhere the word elohim is written over two thousand times in the OT and point to a singular God, other times its ha-elohim and when denoting the sons of God, beney elim or beney ha-elohim is used with no difference in their meanings. I undertand there was a controversy about sons of God meaning polytheism but clearly these beings are not God but created ones belonging to Him. Why is that we all can believe sin was found in satan, that there are powers and principalites that control this world as we are warned about who try and go around corrupting man but when it comes to Gen. 6 and other passages most cannot accept that it is as it is written?

[mizzdy]

people that choose to say that "the 'fallen ones' are from Seth" never mention why GOD would call men those men "sons."

I have yet to see any one claim ''The Fallen ones'' Or Nephilim or Giants as the Bible calls them, were descendants of Seth.

correction: people that choose to say that "the 'fallen ones' are from kings, rulers or great warriors" but never mention why GOD would call men those men "sons of Elohim."

wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

I think you are confusing the giants with the sons of God, The nephilim or giants are referred to as the falling ones. The sons of God are the descendants of Seth. The falling ones are not

The nephillim are the offspring of the fallen ones, they are the giants, the gibborim. http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/nephilim.pdf

[Botz]

These are not easy Scriptures, and have been the subject of debate, conjecture and subsequent opposing views by numerous scholars, theologians, pastors and disciples.

I am with Shiloh on this, and have never thought it possible that there was some sort of chimera created by the fusion of a spiritual being with a fleshly being...in spite of the Scriptures used to support such a view...and people like Chuck Missler who are very convincing in their presentation.

The reasons I don't believe it are firstly...it doesn't witness in my spirit (subjective I know...but that is my spirit-gut-reaction)

Secondly we all understand that there can be no cross-fertilisation from one species to another...everything can only pro-create within the confines of its own kind...therfore you can cross a lion with a tiger and produce ligers and tigons, but you cannot cross a cat with a dog in the hope of producing a cog or a dat.

A spiritual being such as an angel...whether it is a fallen angel or not...is not only a different species, but of an entirely different substance (at least as far as I can work out)....Paul writing to the Corinthians touches on this...

1Corin 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

My understanding is not that Satan tried to prevent Messiah arriving through inseminating mankind with demon seed....but rather that he sought to corrupt the heart of man on a grand scale...man had fallen through Adam and eventually became desperately wicked...but even though G-d destroyed billions of people (it is estimated that at the time of the flood there were quite possibly several billion people living on the earth), He preserved a remnant through which to establish His name.

In the first batch, the rot really set in with Cain....in the second batch, Ham was singled out....and yet through it all we can trace an unbroken line that G-d preserved that led to our salvation through His Son our Messiah.

Botz,

First I would like to thank you for not posting back to me with the usual responses about how silly I am, nothing you say is right, all those wonderful words that cut people to the quick! I understand all you have written and took that stance for years until I spent time in the words and phrasing. Yet as you posted it doesn't witness in your spirit and I respect that. I myself do not believe in their spirit form they could procreate but I also firmly believe their knowledge makes our human knowledge look like gnats buzzing randomly around someones head. So I do believe they can use what God created and create for themselves a body that they could inhabit. Understanding that each kind created after each kind yet the offspring wasn't exactly kosher either since human beings do not produce giants such as they produced, have you ever seen the bones of the giants that have been uncovered across the globle? some of the skulls are four feet tall!! That shows me that those offspring were not quite human in appearance. Too many dismiss out of hand or with some sort of knowledge that these sons of God, for that is what they are called in the bible in more than one scripture, can do what they wish or that they do not exist. I don't believe in some demon seed theology either just for the record. And I have yet to figure out if this specific group of sons of God were with satan when he fell, they could have been a group who stayed with God but wanted to go with satan and left their first estate some time after satan but the bible doesn't tell us that. Something that I came across just this weekend and have not had time to look into it but the phrase that says 'they started calling on the name of God' could mean they cursed or profane and it has been pointed out to me by many that this was the phrase that proves the line of seth theory but as I said I need to look into that. I like Chuck Missler myself even if some of what he preaches goes against what I believe. A lot of my research is within Michael Heisers work on the divine council but not entirely since I do study with many others. I am not here to argue my point at all, I just don't do that but I will discuss with others what I believe and why. My questions about the flood started very young as mosts do and why God felt He needed to destroy the entire world, plants, animals and humans if it was only humans that were corrupted. Doesn't make sense at all to me and to most either.

Hi Mizzdy...thanks for your kind words, I think you probably know by now that I don't go around calling people names however much I might disagree with what they present (unless they are presenting a different gospel).

With things like these Scriptures I don't dismiss out of hand what you or others are saying, and I will always go back and take a fresh look at things from a different perspective if I think it is important, or just if I am interested in what is being discussed.

I like Chuck Missler as well...he is both informative and entertaining, and pushes the boundaries...I respect that...it makes me really have to go to the Scriptures and check out things for myself, and sometimes get rid of some of my own mis-conceptions or some of the dregs of poor teaching that I have picked up along the way.

I think part of the problem that these spiritual chimeras present is almost akin to the problems facing evolutionists...where are all these strange hybrids now?...just one will do!

I have not seen the bones of any of the giants across the globe, but will search the web after this...and I have never heard of a 4ft skull...I just measured mine which comes to 12"...I am 6'1"..so presumably we are talking of people over 20ft. I believe in the huge giants such as Og and Goliath possibly between 10' to 14' approx, but I think wherever they came from they were eventually wiped out completely, and I doubt we shall ever see their like again...but that depends what triggered their growth in the first place. ( I always wondered why there were no 'good' giants anywhere in the Bible!)

I am prepared to credit angels with enormous power and outstanding intelligence, and one angel could extinguish the human race if he was allowed to do so...but somehow in the story of Job, I see that even Satan is limited to what he can do to an individual man by the word of G-d Himself, so I very much doubt that G-d has given the fallen angels either the capacity or the authority to be able to mess with His divine plan in such a way as has been suggested.

Even now our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

I think that in Job, we are given just a brief glimpse, without any elaboration, on part of the way G-d allows an interaction between Himself and those that are in direct opposition to Him. It is therefore better to work with the revealed priciples and words of truth that G-d has demonstrated through His word, than to struggle to build up a fuller picture with things that will probably remain hidden. It is like trying to build a house with bricks but no mortar.

Right surf's up and I'm off to look for giant skeletons.

In Him Botz

[exrockstar]

I think part of the problem that these spiritual chimeras present is almost akin to the problems facing evolutionists...where are all these strange hybrids now?...just one will do!

I have not seen the bones of any of the giants across the globe, but will search the web after this...and I have never heard of a 4ft skull...I just measured mine which comes to 12"...I am 6'1"..so presumably we are talking of people over 20ft. I believe in the huge giants such as Og and Goliath possibly between 10' to 14' approx, but I think wherever they came from they were eventually wiped out completely, and I doubt we shall ever see their like again...but that depends what triggered their growth in the first place. ( I always wondered why there were no 'good' giants anywhere in the Bible!)

I am prepared to credit angels with enormous power and outstanding intelligence, and one angel could extinguish the human race if he was allowed to do so...but somehow in the story of Job, I see that even Satan is limited to what he can do to an individual man by the word of G-d Himself, so I very much doubt that G-d has given the fallen angels either the capacity or the authority to be able to mess with His divine plan in such a way as has been suggested.

i think i'm going to comment on what you said Botz: "I see that even Satan is limited to what he can do to an individual man by the word of G-d Himself, so I very much doubt that G-d has given the fallen angels either the capacity or the authority to be able to mess with His divine plan in such a way as has been suggested."

but the daughters of these men (gen 6:2) were not "protected" as Job was because they were not excercising sacrificial offerings. Noah was and he was protected by a flood warning. That is why God was pleased with him. Noah again immediately built an alter after the flood.

if the words "beni-ah-Elohim" (read previous posts of definition) do not make you ask more questions then I dont know what will.

If you want to logically comprehend what is possible then I also hope that your questioning things like "since angels do not have gender then is it a coincidence that Satan knew Eve was female since he approached her and not the man? Satan knows gender. How is that?"

"if i dont beleive in a giant stature due because lack of evidence then can I believe in the arc since that hasnt been found?"

why would God call anyone "beni-ah-Elohim" if they are not? and if one says that "it's was the hip cool thing they said back in those days concerning rulers." well...Christ said it and he was called a blasphemer so i guess it wasnt cool anymore.

i dont think anyone is going to convince someone out of their position but I question one and all.

[Botz]

Had a look at the site you posted Mizzdy...interesting, and debunks Sitchin's spacemen theory, but I see still latches on to the idea of cross angelic-human fertilization, but does so from a historical etomological perspective.

As Believers in the L-rd, we have to be open to all sorts of possibilities that most people won't even contemplate, but because we know in who we have believed, we are persuaded otherwise....for example stopping the sun, or calming the wind and the sea...we know these things are true, even if they excede the bounds of our knowledge...and even if according to our calculations they are an impossibility....G-d is not restricted by our understanding, or even by the laws He has put in motion that hold our universe together.

I would be very open to believing in these fallen angelic beings corrupting human flesh so that G-d has to destroy the world and start again, meanwhile putting these hybrids in a spiritual prison because they cannot die....but I am not convinced by either argument or Scripture, and Noah was building his Ark for all those years as a prophetic witness aginst the evil generation...and he was a preacher of righteousness, not to evil spirits, but to fallen humanity that had descended into unbelievable depravity.

When you look at biblical accounts of spiritual beings interacting with the human race, there are very definate lines drawn that cannot be crossed...this might even include the hidden knowledge that fallen spirits are said to have passed on to mankind, in an attempt to direct their attention away from Him...a case in point being Nimrod, but on this I am probably willing to concede that there is a likelihood of this happening, especially as the quest for 'hidden knowledge' or the 'occult' has been part of mans sin and downfall from time immemorial...including writings, rituals and elaborate life-styles.

Run out of time...o by the way, checked out giants and skeletons and could only find hoax pictures and make-believe stories, so Ezekiel and me remain unbelievers so far.