Genesis 11:7

[Botz]

Hi Jeffnevins and Laca...what EricH said above.

The Father enjoyed fellowship with the Son from all eternity, hence 'we'...alternatively see how the L-rd approached Abraham under the oak at Mamre...He came with two angels 'incognito'...quite possibly he came to Babel in a similar manner.

Quote Laca...

In a way, that would make sense, since life comes from 2 parents. Physical father and Physical mother = Spiritual Father and Spiritual Mother

Plus nowhere in the Bible is the idea of a mother and father G-d purported...it is a heathen concept of devilish origin, just the sort of thing the Mormon religion has adopted through the strange revelations of Joseph Smith...

It is also foolishness trying to make sense of the Godhead through humanistic logic, and not the revealed truth of G-d.

[mizzdy]

The book is called "Biblical Affirmations of Woman" by Leonard Swidler.

Hi Laca,

I have read most of what you sent and where he may say this concept is hebrew in origin it is not. This is the concepts and idoltary that came out of the tower of Babel, Urgartic and Akkadian thinking not what the hebrews or Israelites believed. I believe the author quoted from one of the Odes of Solomon where it says something similar to 'She' lifted me up to heaven to show the feminine but the word spirit is in Aramaic and in that language it is feminine not because anyone believed there were a male and female creator.

The first century Jews and ancients always believed in a 'two powers' in heaven until the Jews who believed in the Messiah started identifying the second power as Christ, at least thats what I have read. In many of the targums this second power is identified as the Son. I do differ with your author about elohim being male and female even if there are instances where one may find some references to the contrary, elohim is God. The 'us' is simply in my thinking these two powers, God and the Word, two divine beings. Although some do think the angels may have been there also and I think that God made them in His image alsoi. In the book The Wisdom of Sirach shows the Jewish understanding of the Most High God and His divine Son,

Sirach 51:10 I appealed to the Lord, the Father of my Lord, not to forsake me in the days of affliction, at the time when there is no help against the proud.

Also in Psalms 110:1

The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

So nowhere in the bible or in the literature that came out of the ancient rabbis and Israelites can I find any of them who were God fearing believing in a female co-creator God. Even in Philo's writings we cannot find anything such as that and he refuted many aposate thinkings and teachings. The one thing I find missing even in the first century writers is the concept that the Holy Spirit as a separate person. Seems they knew of God and His Son's spirit but believed it was what came from God but not separate from either of them.

[mizzdy]

The plural "we" in these passages was understood almost unanimously by the Church Fathers as referring to the Triune nature of God.

Not really. It wasn't until sometime in the 4th century that the trinitarian concept was formalized and the first century writers such as Philo only talks about God and His Son. Wasn't the nicene creed that formal declaration or something along those lines? The we in Gen. refers to God and His Word. In Philos Dialoque with Trypho he states, "The Lord rained fire from the Lord of of heaven', the prophetic word indicates that there were two in number: One upon the earth, who, it says, descended to behold the cry of Sodom; another in heaven, who also is Lord of the Lord on earth, as He is Father and God; the cause of His power and of His being Lord and God...' So it seems that either Philo omitted the Holy Spirit or perhaps he didn't think of there being a truine God.

[sheya joie]

Thought I would mention this Scripture:

Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

[EricH]

A simpler explanation would be that God is using the royal 'we'.

It might be simpler for us, but the problem is that there are no examples of any monarch using this designation for themselves in OT Hebrew. The plural "we" in these passages was understood almost unanimously by the Church Fathers as referring to the Triune nature of God.

This may not be the simplest explanation, but it was the best. The let us verses have nothing to do with God actually being plural, or some trinity.

I understand that is your opinion, but I see nothing you have stated that would substantiate that

[EricH]

Some think God is plural ''elohim'' because He is a Trinity, just like in Genesis 1:26, but the more likely reason is because in the Hebrew language the is no capitalization. so there is no way to show a proper noun, so they pluralized el to elohim to show God's supremacy, not because He is a plural being, but He is the most supreme, the plural of excellence the plural of almighty ect

The problem with this explnation is that the issue is not with the name elohim. The issue is with the person and number of the verbs. The plural of excellence was never used in biblical hebrew. So there is nothing to substantiate you assertion.