The Rapture

[OneLight]

Jesus clearly states that the resurrection is on the Last Day. Jesus never lies. And I'm not calling anyone specifically a liar, but if someone contradicts Jesus' spoken words, would they NOT be a liar? Perhaps the term mistaken would be better?

Confused, mistaken, misled ... there are many other words that could fit.

Can I get your definition of the "last day"?

[Bold Believer]

Jesus clearly states that the resurrection is on the Last Day. Jesus never lies. And I'm not calling anyone specifically a liar, but if someone contradicts Jesus' spoken words, would they NOT be a liar? Perhaps the term mistaken would be better?

Confused, mistaken, misled ... there are many other words that could fit.

Can I get your definition of the "last day"?

What other definition could there be? The LAST Day of this current time-space existence. There is no time after Judgment Day, only eternity.

Yes, I think misled would apply best. I still can't figure out for the life of me how in the world that "last" can mean anything BUT last. If there is anything after it, then it can't be the LAST.

The idea of coming in the clouds is a consistent OT theme. Rev 1:7 doesn't refer to the Second Coming, it refers to the LORD's coming in judgment, which He did. That is what Revelation is primarily about, the unveiling of the LORD and His Judgment, what Jesus called the days of vengeance and the fulfillment of Daniel 9.

Chapter 20 and onward tell us of the things leading up to the Last Day. It starts with the binding of Satan and the time of the Olam ha Ba/enlightening of the Gentiles (Isaiah spoke of it, and it's spoken of again in Acts by the apostles). It is not a literal 1000 years, but rather a long period of indefinite time (chiloi, not chilios) during which Christ reigns from His Holy City (New Jerusalem) over the earth. The idea of a literal 1000 years was one of the parts of the Ceriinthian heresy. During the Age to Come, the Devil was unable to prevent the Gospel from going out to the nations, the knowledge of the LORD covered the earth as the waters cover the seas. Whole nations came to Christ. Christian nations brought freedom, invention, education to the world. The time was not a golden age, there were sins, but the righteous prevailed. I personally believe that we have come to the time though when Satan has been loosed. Christianity no longer prevails. Instead, there is apostasy in the Church and godlessness prevails amongst the sons of men and we're seeing Noah's and Sodom's times, which Jesus said was an indicator that His Coming/the Last Day was close at hand. The length of the 'little season' is never mentioned, the Greek term mikros chronos means simply a little time or a little while.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Bold Believer

[OneLight]

Jesus clearly states that the resurrection is on the Last Day. Jesus never lies. And I'm not calling anyone specifically a liar, but if someone contradicts Jesus' spoken words, would they NOT be a liar? Perhaps the term mistaken would be better?

Confused, mistaken, misled ... there are many other words that could fit.

Can I get your definition of the "last day"?

What other definition could there be? The LAST Day of this current time-space existence. There is no time after Judgment Day, only eternity.

Yes, I think misled would apply best. I still can't figure out for the life of me how in the world that "last" can mean anything BUT last. If there is anything after it, then it can't be the LAST.

Lets look ...

Everyone rises on the Last Day. The righteous come forth either from the New Jerusalem (in Heaven) and get reunited with their bodies from the grave (sleep) or they get changed while still in their earthly bodies (they were still living).

The wicked come back from the grave (hell for them). Any living unbeliever is burned to a crispy crackly crunch at the Second Coming, then brought back to life after the Church is rewarded. These things happen quickly apparently.

Regardless of what occurs, it all happens on the Last Day and not before. Anyone who says otherwise calls Jesus a liar.

How can you keep this opinion in light of what revelation 20:4-6 says? We clearly see that the wicked are raised 1,000 years after the righteous.

The wicked are raised at the end of the chilioi, yes. However, the Second Coming is ALSO at the end of the chlioi (thousand years). The fire out of heaven IS the Second Coming/Last Day. The thousand years is the Olam ha Ba or age to come. That started at Pentecost. Some call it the gospel age. The resurrection of the righteous and the wicked occurs on the Last Day, but not at the same time on the Last Day. There is an order observed.

1. Gog and Magog surround the Holy City (earthly Church)

2. God sends fire from out of heaven/Second Coming/resurrection-rapture of believers all occur

3. Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire

4. The wicked are brought to life, then judged and cast in with the Devil

5. The New Heaven and New Earth come to pass

6. The righteous come down (having been raptured/resurrected bodily at the Coming) as the now completed Holy City

7. Eternity begins

It appears that there is a missing time span in what is being brought forth.

First, the discussion was talking about Christ coming back with both the saved (Abraham's Bosom) and sinner (Hades) as found in Luke 16:19-31. This lead to the discussion we are now having.

As I mentioned first, there is something very important missing from what you bring as a time line. So, let's examine Rev 19:11 - 20:15. This is the only true time line.

Revelation 19

Christ on a White Horse

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven,

[Bold Believer]

The Scripture never says that the Olam Ha Ba starts when Jesus comes the second time. If that was so, then there are 3 comings.

When the Lord was here, after his resurrection, and just before the Ascension, he said "All authority in Heaven and Earth is given to me." That effectively began the chilioi, millennium, Gospel Age, Age to Come. Look at Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man (obviously Jesus) comes to the Ancient of Days and receives a kingdom. That's the Ascension. Jesus is no longer Moschiach the Prince, he's Moschiach the King.

Christ ruled over the nations from the Heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. The millennium was literal, Christ DID rule, through His Church in both heaven AND earth, but it was not a literal thousand years. It was not necessary for Jesus to be on earth to rule it. The heavens are His throne and the earth His footstool. The word chilioi is used, not chilios. Chilios means one thousand. Chilioi means thousands. It's idiomic expression, similar to 'I've told you thousands of times..." Christ reigned over the nations for thousands of years.

The binding of Satan is very specific. It is done to prevent his deceiving the nations until the chilioi is fulfilled. The bottomless pit speaks of death. This tells us that Satan was only able to deceive those already dead (Christ rejectors). If one has never known of Jesus, which the Gentiles clearly did not, then they are blind, but not dead (spiritually speaking). If a person learns, and THEN rejects, then they were able to be deceived. Remember, the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the seas, not the salvation of the Lord. You can know and not believe, which only makes you more liable on the Last Day.

The whole eschatological thing is a time-order puzzle. On that, I think we all agree. Move the pieces around until they are in the right order and we will understand.

One Light, the Rev 19 passages are metaphoric. Christ came metaphorically at the head of that Roman Army. They were his tools of judgment. Wicked unbelieving Israel was punished double for her sins, for worshiping Rome and not Christ, for taking the mark of the Beast (emperor worship) and not the mark of God (Deut 6:8; note the comparison of the mark of the Beast and the mark of God, they are exact opposites of each other). The whore (unbelieving Israel) rode the Beast (Rome) and committed fornication with it (Ezekiel 16, Jeremiah 51). Christ has not yet come, he comes like Peter says in II Pet 3:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Now compare this to Rev 20:9...SAME EVENT.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Bold Believer

[OneLight]

The Scripture never says that the Olam Ha Ba starts when Jesus comes the second time. If that was so, then there are 3 comings.

When the Lord was here, after his resurrection, and just before the Ascension, he said "All authority in Heaven and Earth is given to me." That effectively began the chilioi, millennium, Gospel Age, Age to Come. Look at Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man (obviously Jesus) comes to the Ancient of Days and receives a kingdom. That's the Ascension. Jesus is no longer Moschiach the Prince, he's Moschiach the King.

Christ ruled over the nations from the Heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. The millennium was literal, Christ DID rule, through His Church in both heaven AND earth, but it was not a literal thousand years. It was not necessary for Jesus to be on earth to rule it. The heavens are His throne and the earth His footstool. The word chilioi is used, not chilios. Chilios means one thousand. Chilioi means thousands. It's idiomic expression, similar to 'I've told you thousands of times..." Christ reigned over the nations for thousands of years.

The binding of Satan is very specific. It is done to prevent his deceiving the nations until the chilioi is fulfilled. The bottomless pit speaks of death. This tells us that Satan was only able to deceive those already dead (Christ rejectors). If one has never known of Jesus, which the Gentiles clearly did not, then they are blind, but not dead (spiritually speaking). If a person learns, and THEN rejects, then they were able to be deceived. Remember, the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the seas, not the salvation of the Lord. You can know and not believe, which only makes you more liable on the Last Day.

The whole eschatological thing is a time-order puzzle. On that, I think we all agree. Move the pieces around until they are in the right order and we will understand.

Say What?

[Bold Believer]

The Scripture never says that the Olam Ha Ba starts when Jesus comes the second time. If that was so, then there are 3 comings.

When the Lord was here, after his resurrection, and just before the Ascension, he said "All authority in Heaven and Earth is given to me." That effectively began the chilioi, millennium, Gospel Age, Age to Come. Look at Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man (obviously Jesus) comes to the Ancient of Days and receives a kingdom. That's the Ascension. Jesus is no longer Moschiach the Prince, he's Moschiach the King.

Christ ruled over the nations from the Heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. The millennium was literal, Christ DID rule, through His Church in both heaven AND earth, but it was not a literal thousand years. It was not necessary for Jesus to be on earth to rule it. The heavens are His throne and the earth His footstool. The word chilioi is used, not chilios. Chilios means one thousand. Chilioi means thousands. It's idiomic expression, similar to 'I've told you thousands of times..." Christ reigned over the nations for thousands of years.

The binding of Satan is very specific. It is done to prevent his deceiving the nations until the chilioi is fulfilled. The bottomless pit speaks of death. This tells us that Satan was only able to deceive those already dead (Christ rejectors). If one has never known of Jesus, which the Gentiles clearly did not, then they are blind, but not dead (spiritually speaking). If a person learns, and THEN rejects, then they were able to be deceived. Remember, the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the seas, not the salvation of the Lord. You can know and not believe, which only makes you more liable on the Last Day.

The whole eschatological thing is a time-order puzzle. On that, I think we all agree. Move the pieces around until they are in the right order and we will understand.

Say What?

What do you not understand friend?

If we understand that eschatology is not JUST Revelation and that Scripture interprets Scripture, we come up with a very different concept. Pre-millennialists tend to use a lot of outside sources to interpret Scripture, which explains why their eschatology is so confusing, what with gaps here and the rapture before the tribulation there. Historical post-millennialism comes closest to Scripture, but then they think that the Church will convert the whole world. Scripture never says that.

John uses things which a first century believer would understand culturally in Revelation.

Revelation was not written in 90 or 95, which is the first error. It was written BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem. (I know, I know, all the 'experts' say it was written later. An ex-spurt is a former drip, LOL)

John says that the Church are fellow partakers in tribulation with him. History tells us that the Church was persecuted under Nero which places Revelation's writing before 68, when Nero died.

John draws intensively from the Old Testament to write Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Deuteronomy.

John never uses outside sources to understand Revelation, so why should we?

[Rick-Parker]

Reported.

Again.

Do you report everybody every time they respond to you or is it just me cobalt? Kind of strange if you ask me. Why so touchy my friend?

Only when they continually insult me. . .

You are insulted by the fact that bold believer will not believe anything written in Revelation....odd.

Does BB know that? He doesn't believe anything written in Revelation? Is that true, a fact as you say?

[Bold Believer]

I believe EVERYTHING in the Book of Revelation. It just isn't always literal.

[Rick-Parker]

I believe EVERYTHING in the Book of Revelation. It just isn't always literal.

Maybe you should tell your spokesman that or maybe tell him you are able to speak for yourself.

[hayahtowb]

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. please notice in verse 51 that, all will be changed.

A simple point of clarification;

"and "WE" shall be changed" The "WE" is the people the letter is written to that the writer considers himself a part of.

In other words, Paul is pointing out that the saints will be changed.

Hi kross, please tell,.. what happens at the last trump (and the "we" was added to the Greek text)?