Overview

That is of course true and important. However, it is not about being right, it is also about being right, being watchful, and being prepared. I would rather have believers watching for the signs that Jesus said to watch for, rather have them understanding as Paul said, that our gathering together will not happen before the man of sin is reveal, and also not before the 1st resurrection of Christians, that Revelation 20 tells us is after the tribulation. It just seem wise to have people be aware of what is coming, and what the signs are, and not be caught off guard and shocked to find themselves in the middle of troubles they were convinced would not happen to them. I have to agree with Corrie ten Boom who said: There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are some of the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China, the Christians were told, “Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated — raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes — to stand and not faint. I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next. Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, “Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart. I just see it as an obligation to the Lord and to my brethren, to warn them about what the Bible says, not what some well meaning people teach. It is not about being right, it is about love and doing right!

Same here, and that was a lot of listening, because he had a 3 hour program on Sunday evening, or was it Saturday - not sure, and a 1 hour program each weekday, which I listened to at work. Also, I attended his adult Sunday school classes at Melodyland Christian Center and the Newport-Mesa Christian center when he move it to that location.

I have not ruled out a pre-wrath rapture, but I cannot find two people who agree upon what it is, lol!

Ah, the late great Walter Martin. One of my premier mentors; never missed a program of his if I could help it. Besides being an excellent Christian apologist, he was also a college professor of logic -- although he sometimes didn't apply it to some of his views. An understanding of sound principles of logic is something sorely missing in the majority of people who post their views online, sad to say.

Gee, I hate to respond to this so long after the time of the post, but for some reason, I just now saw this. I notice what I think are some oversights that lead to misunderstanding. These things are that the "brightness of His coming", is a reference to when He comes visible, where every eye shall see Him, as the lightning shines from the east even unto the west etc, are all references to His revelation at His second coming, which Jesus said was immediately after the tribulation. Also, that parousia is not that same as the rapture, though they could happen in such close chronological sequence as to be all but indistinguishable in terms of the delay between the events (as in twinkling of the eye quick). The rapture is us going up to Him, the parousia is Him coming down to where we now are (well more exactly to the holy land). The parousia, has a technical meaning. It is made from Greek words for "alongside" & "I am". That is why it is often translated as arrival or presence. It is His coming to the earth, to be here, not hanging up in the sky somewhere. Parousia, is contrasted with apousia, or absence. parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S). [(parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).] So the New Testament does associate the parousia with the rapture, that much is true. It even states that the rapture comes before His presence. The trouble is that some fail to notice that His revelation, the catching up of believers to be with Him forever, and His return to earth are all following the great tribulation, wherever the events are specified in any chronological detail or sequence.

It is interesting to note, that an alternate translation of that from the Greek language is: “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may have the strength to flee all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Don't worry too much about who is right, if the rapture comes first,you will not left behind,to be close and to have a good relation with God is far more important and He will show you what He wants you to know,in the end it doesn't really matter, take it easy and rejoice in our Savior,we will meet Jesus in the air at some point if we're still alive

Iron sharpens Iron Well, for reasons that I already to not recall, I reopened my Things the Bible does not say thread. Maybe I am a glutton for punishment. In spite of the work that I have cut out for myself by doing that, I am always interested in hearing peoples responses. The adage that iron sharpens iron, is true. (Technically, iron does not actually sharpen iron very well, we we get the point!) However, I used to think of it in terms of how Christians can help each other with doctrine, encouragement, and examples of practical living and the like. I realize now though that we are also sharpened by those with whom we have doctrinal disagreements. Here is the interesting part to me though: At one time, I was a pre-tribulation rapture believer myself. In fact, for a few years, I did not even know there was another position, pre-trib was all I had ever heard. Then I heard some guy on the radio (Dr. Walter Martin) saying that the historic view of the church, was that she would be raptured after the great tribulation. I was a little shocked by this heretic who called himself "The Bible Answer Man". After all, there was a best selling book called The Late, Great Planet Earth which told how Jesus was coming soon, before the great tribulation, and the book was even a best seller among a secular audience. People at that time, were quite caught up in eschatology, even if they did not know the word. My pastor was pre-trib, my mentor was pre-trib. There were two pre-trib movies out, "Thief in the Night" and "A Distant Thunder", they were dramas from a pre-trib perspective. So who was this Walter Martin kook to think that a post-trib rapture was the way it would be? I decided to read the Bible, cover to cover, looking for the clues. How could it even be that these two scenarios, pre and post tribulation, could co-exist among Christians using the same Bible, it did not make sense. So it took me 8 months to read the Bible cover to cover and find every verse that looked as if it could offer insight to matters on timing or sequence. I had a whole bunch of post-it note on a 4 foot by 8 foot surface. I tried to arrange them in an order where no verse contradicted another. The only order that seemed to fit that description, was a post-trib scenario. I know every one with a strong opinion, thinks their view does not contradict scripture, but I was not seeing it. More to the point, what struck me, was that the pre-trib view, my view up until that time, did not seem to even have support, without me trying to read into the text several things which is just never said. I had to abandon that view. Eventually, I came to accept, that I was a post-trib rapturist. Now, I started this post with the notion that iron sharpens iron, but here is what I had not previously realized about that idea. Iron that does not agree with you, still sharpens iron. When I came to Worthy in 2003 or 2004, I felt like a real minority as a post-tribber. I was probably 90% sure, that I had the best scripturally supported position, whether or not I got it right, that was just where the evidence led. People would gang up on me, for taking that stance. I was okay with that, but it was hard to get an word in because there were just so many more pre-tribbers, or at least vocal ones. I think in hindsight, that there were more post-tribbers than I knew, but they were in the closet. I tried now and then to voice my opinions in the forums and in chat. Over time, I noticed an unexpected thing happening. The more I read what pre-tribbers believed and why, the more they did to convince me that they we likely not correct. Seriously, the most convincing case in my mind of post-trib eschatology, was the arguments from the brothers and sisters in the pre-trib camp. What the generally offered, were statements of what was true, without evidence of what was true. Whenever they tried to use scripture, they took it out of context, or combined passages that had no relevance to each other, or they just (very commonly) made a defense based on assumptions, not facts in scripture. Eventually, the pre-tribbers got me to a point where I was 95% certain they were wrong. Later still, it was 99% certainty. I still hold out hope that one will come up with an unanswerable point, but I am not going to hold my breath at this point. At 69 years of age, and my families medical history (and my own) I may not have that many breaths left. Anyway, I just wanted to update that I had reopened that thread, at least for now. So far, is is just me and a few post-tribbers, and I am worried that I will get overwhelmed, out numbered. So far it is not bad, but of course, when you make a post about things that the Bible does not say, and it is almost a manifesto of what pre-tribbers believe, it is inviting controversy, so it is on me. So far, they are a polite, considerate group of people. If it gets to be too much for me to handle in terms of volume, as the originator of the thread, I can stop it if I need to and catch my breath. Take a look if you are so inclined!

Yeah, I just did that. I can feature the post, pin it in place, so that it does not get pushed down by newer posts, but I am not sure that I even want it at the top of the list. The blog is more about things I think about, than topical studies or theology, but since I do think about these things, maybe that is a false distinction! I'll think about it.

I just posted in the Bible Study area, at least I think that is what it is called. It compares verbiage (primarially about the heavens) but also I think the terms of wrath and anger are interesting, since some think the tribulation is the wrath, but these verse seem more to me, to reference "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Perhaps, some of you might want to inject some thoughts or observations into the thread.

I do not know if this is the same thread that I just posted in, if not, it was similar, something along the lines of "what must happen first" I think. I just replied to iamlamad about the meaning of "as it was in the days of Noah". I think my reply, was not novel, but it might have pretty well thought out and succinct info, at least in my opinion, about that topic, that may be useful to helping others understand. If that might be of interest, here is is:

I would like to suggest that you post this on your blog. Especially if your blog is to remain dormant, because then this will appear at the top of the list. That would make this post available for view for a long time, without it continually being buried by new topics.

One of my most repeatedly-quoted verses, Luke 21:36 -- “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” If we are to be found worthy to escape "these things" (the coming trials of the Great Tribulation), then we had darn well better know about them, eh?

This is the only point I would disagree with. But the exposition of the reasons is too long this forum. Here is a summary of one part: Under the more literal translation of Daniel 12:11, the meaning of the verse indicates that the 1290 days will begin with the complete annulment, by the King of the North, of Judeo-Christian worship in Jerusalem. Or, at the least, such worship in the most holy place: on the Temple Mount or in the ancient City of David, if the latter is found to be the original site of the Temple. The 1290 days will come to an end when the Abomination of Desolation is placed; then the Great Tribulation ensues for all or part of 45 days. These things mean that the 1290 days will be both Pre-Tribulation and Pre-Wrath. Those “blessed/happy [ones]…who earnestly wait, and attain the 1335 days” are ones who successfully both “flee to the mountains/wilderness” and are “accounted worthy to escape all these things [of the Great Tribulation] that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36; Rev. 7:9 Quite possibly a day of Pentecost will be when the elect/worthy ones ascend upon the heavenly Mount Zion. The 3½ times/1260 days found in Daniel 12:7 and other Scriptures will be the topic of a later blog. That period is Post-Tribulation. The above is from the blog post The 1290 and 1335 Days of Daniel 12:11-12, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/ The blog post on the 1260 days follows right after this one. The point being that there will be a minimum of 3½ times/1260 days after the ascent of the Church and Christ's return in the Revelation 19 scenario to defeat the Beast and the kings of the earth.

There is merit in understanding the things to come. Behold, I have told you in advance. Matthew 24:25 So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:33 Otherwise, I doubt that Jesus would have said these things.

I think that since 30% of scripture was prophetic at the time of it's writing, in must be something God thought important enough to inspire. I have to conclude that although eschatology is not salvific, I do not have any right to judge it as unimportant. I think the "pan-trib" and "pan-mill" positions, are disrespectful to God. Debate, in the since of getting angry with those who disagree, is inappropriate, it is not a hill to die on. At the same time, how is is at all loving, to not share insights with others, and topics that God gave us information to understand? So yes, I think it is a worthy topic. On the other hand, it can become a hobby horse theology, that diverts us from other things. I hope I am not stepping on any theological toes here, but I do not think eschatology compares with debates about whether angels mated with human women, or if the earth is flat or a sphere. Things that really matter, are who is God/Jesus, what does He expect from us, how are people saved, what is the gospel, how to live holy lives and yes, even being prepared for and understanding, what lies ahead. Think of it this way: If you were a Jew, pre-messiah, would you have wanted to understand, that the Messiah would come to suffer and die for us? Would that be worthy? I think it would be, but it would have been hotly debated. Should we (in that position) have avoided the debate? Now, as I said, we can get overly focused on this topic, here are some signs that this has happened to you: You use the left behind books as devotional reading You get goosebumps when you hear a trumpet You think the term the "church fathers" refers to Hal Lindsay and Tim LeHaye You believe that there are original Greek and Hebrew texts with Scofield notes You can name more signs of the times than you can commandments You refuse a tax refund check if the about comes to $666 You get nervous around barcode scanners You try to talk your church into adopting the 60's pop song "Up Up and Away" as a Christian hymn You'd never buy green bananas You leave the top down in your convertible in case the rapture happens *those are not original with me One last thing, if you get the humor in the ones above, you might be overly focused as well, since "normal" people may not even understand them!

Makes sense. I would add it's essential to be able to answer the opposition as well.

Diaste, I agree. I think it is of utmost importance. Any serious student of the bible would know that Jesus places eschatology (the study of last things) front and center, as can be seen in many of the parables. Death and the afterlife, Heaven and Hell, the second coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, the rapture, the tribulation, millennialism, the Last Judgment..... these are found in many places in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testament. It is our duty as Christians, not only to evangelize, but to have a good grasp of the Scriptural teachings of the end times, so that we can give an answer to those who are new to the faith.

I am of the opinion it is. It matters a great deal to me but is it really a big picture, worthy endeavor?

Yes, you need to be careful, while I can make mistakes, I try to choose my language carefully, so as to not be misunderstood about what I am saying. I cannot count how many times, I have had to reply to someone with "I did not say that, what I said was . . . " I can get annoyed when people see what they want to see, reading between the lines (they think) when for the most part I say what I mean, without much more or less intended.

OK Cletus, you should be able to scroll up, or click this link: See if that does not clarify a little.

Sure, I can do that Cletus. Right now I cannot, but I will get to it sometime in the next 24 hours, I should think.

Sure Cletus! The coming like a thief language, is used several times in scripture, relating to Jesus's coming. I think that if you look at such passages, you will find that the contexts, stress the sudden, and unexpected nature of that return, and that there are two kinds of people who are pictured in these various "as" scenarios. As it was, in the days of Noah, for example. Two kinds of people those who are taken, those who are left, those who are surprised, those who are expectant. Now, in the case of Noah, there are those who are expectant (Noah and family) and those who are surprised by the flood, and taken away to their destruction. Think of sheep and goats, wheat and tares, there are separated groups, and separated ends. In the case of the thief there are also two kinds. Those who are watchful and those who are caught off guard. For example, in 1 Thess 5 we see: While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape Then the apostle explains. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. This is an indication, to me at least, that it is not the church, that Jesus comes for as a thief, the thief comes upon those who are not expecting His return, that is what is behind my number 8. I do not think that He comes for the church in any secret, or invisible fashion, all I see is His visible coming, and some will be not be happy about it, others will be glad to see Him. Again, two groups of people, the elect who He chose, and those who rejected Him. Does that help?

I thought perhaps considering the people here and topic, and the quality of discussion, that maybe this would be a useful contribution. I was posted in the forums, and after a considerable time for comment, I eventually closed that thread. It seemed clear, that there were some who believed the concepts on the list, but basically there seemed or real responses that invalidated the claims I made about ideas that were not expressed in scripture. The list, was thirteen items (originally 9 I think) that are commonly believed, but not really from the Bible. You should see some links in the text below. Hovering a mouse cursor over them, might bring up a tip or short comment, and clicking the link should take you to a related resource or verse. Things some people say (which the Bible DOES NOT) about the End Times Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask themselves, why they believe certain things, that the Bible never says. So basically, in between the lines I am asking: If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture? Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers? So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? Following is a short list: 1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation. 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. (See Matt 24:21 & Rev 7:14) 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is missing from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation. 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God. 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church. 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming. 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment. 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church. 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death. 10. The Bible does not say the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. (Titus 2:13) 11. The Bible does not say that Jesus will return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return. 12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. Those definitions may be workable, however the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

Some verses those who believe the Ezekiel war is next need to explain: Ezekiel 38:11 “You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’ 15 “Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. 39:9 “Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 17 “And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: ... 20 you shall be filled at My table with horses... My take on the timing of the Ezekiel war: The collapse of our complex and fragile global systems during the Great Tribulation will, not too long after, be followed by the megadeath of the 6th trumpet. The ability to sustain complex technology: gone. The ability to manufacture complex weapons and explosives: gone. The ability to refine crude oil into gasoline: gone with the refineries. Which cannot be rebuilt, because most of the techs and engineers with the know-how to do so will be dead, and the complex parts-supply systems will be defunct. The remnant of people left on earth -- both God's and God's foes -- will have gone back to living rural pastoral lives in order to survive. This is why the invading armies of the Ezekiel 38-39 war will be riding on horses and carrying shields, spears, and bows. This is why Israel is living at peace, without walls: a long period of peace; or, to put it another way, exhaustion from war combined with a massive world de-population. Birds don't each motorized vehicles, but they do eat dead horses.