enoob57

I cannot see how you are connecting this with suffering?

Your church sounds like health, wealth, prosperity gospel? If you suffer it is because of a lack of faith?

There exist two reasons children of God suffer: 1. Our choice of sin and the curse it brings upon the whole world. 2. The hatred of satan and his toward the things of God.

Amen... The key is Christ was the sinless Son of God ... He simply had no sin of His own! Hebrews 4:15 (KJV) [15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Yet the only righteous choice for God is to condemn sin as it's only source is lie John 8:44 (KJV) [44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. The only perfection is to remove all imperfection and that is what we see God has done... all this is removed and forgotten Gen 1:1a In the beginning God .....................................................,, Rev 21-22:21 The reason God removes all memory of the first creation is it had no part with Him! Philippians 4:8 (KJV) [8] Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. as much as we would like to be able to do this... we are faced with this reality here and now: 1 Corinthians 8:2 (KJV) [2] And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. Hence knowledge will cease: 1Cor 13:8 Rev 21:4 Isa 65:17 Some contend that the earth will be renovated but according to God's Word 'all things will be made new' ... God is going to make all things new cf. 1. new things, Isa 42:9 Isa 48:6-7 2. new song, Isa 42:10 (cf. Rev 5:9 Rev 14:3) 3. something new, Isa 43:19 (cf. Rev 3:12) 4. new name, Isa 62:2 (cf. Isa 56:5) 5. new heavens and a new earth, Isa 65:17 Isa 66:22 (cf. 2 Peter 3:13) The "new" day (cf. Rev 21:5) was, in reality, the day that God always wanted for humans, but the Fall in Gen 3 caused a terrible disruption! It is surely possible that the Bible's imagery of heaven is a restored Garden of Eden (cf. Rev 22).

stirring the pot keeps things from sticking

This is why my basic contention with Calvinist Soteriology is that it places the responsibility of response for sin on God ... the outcome in final judgment could only be God judging Himself and that could never be Romans 4:15 (KJV) [15] Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. as there exist no transgression with God Himself thus there cannot be law unto God...

Let me see if I can show this another way Romans 1:18 (KJV) [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, this is who is being addressed who hold the truth in unrighteousness; they may claim disbelief, wrong gods, love for created over Creator, but they know [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. even the material reality they have began in they know [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even God's judgment upon man his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: This is why I believe all of mankind can take in God's Truth (His Word) because God has already told me they can and are without excuse...

I do not believe in the mechanics of Total depravity whether by Arminius or Calvin... I believe all men are able to respond to God's truth even while dead spiritually... I believe this is saying this specific Luke 5:32 (KJV) [32] I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Yes, it is the word of God which is the truth that can set us free... John 8:32 (KJV) [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 17:17 (KJV) [17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. When the heart takes in God's Word it takes in God's Holy Spirit inspired truth essence of God and will generate the faith necessary to believe and be saved ... salvation by asking God to enter into them empowering, by God's Spirit, to become children of God...

Just show me where this is stated by Scripture? Because this says Jesus is expecting it from them Luke 5:32 (KJV) [32] I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 4:17 (KJV) [17] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Luke 3:8 (KJV) [8] Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 2 Corinthians 7:10 (KJV) [10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Luke 5:32 (KJV) [32] I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Revelation 2:5 (KJV) [5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Acts 11:18 (KJV) [18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. 2 Timothy 2:25 (KJV) [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

proof positive The Lord does have a sense of humor...

Luke 15:24 (KJV) [24] For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The other deduction of above is without the realized truth of God's Word and taken into the being no godly sorrow can occur... Romans 10:17 (KJV) [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) [6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It is actually the entire phraseology of the grammatic structure of the verse: "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of" is a compound sentence with a main clause and a sub clause. It forms the idea that 'real' sorrow and 'not real' sorrow or truth of sorrow verses the lie of sorrow... yields to actual or not actual repentance...

The Spiritual is infinite, and science is finite... the only way to join finite to infinite is by faith... As one cannot begin a look to that which ceases as though a tool to examine that which neither had beginning or end period...

The Scripture makes a distinction in repentance: 2 Corinthians 7:10-11 (KJV) [10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. [11] For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

not to jump to conclusions could you expound on this a bit more?

I definitely think spiritual.... the realm of heaven is one of spiritual essence and that's where it all began... Jesus spoke of the dough and leaven as an understanding how sin multiplies once introduced into the dough... The creation itself changed as a result of God's cursing of it due to the spiritual death of Adam and Eve... I also think of the serpent and due to it's cooperation it was physically cursed... Yes, I think the dough and leaven would also support the entering in idea... Plus we are commanded to be KEEPING filled with The Holy Spirit so that we walk in The Spirit and not in the flesh... Prayer, obedience, meditation upon Scripture, searching for answers that arise in our heart from Scripture, learning the value of Spiritual food more than physical food so that we too might not turn stones to bread even though our body may be screaming to fill it... etc. I tell my children in children's worship that if they focus upon that which God has told them He 'IS' not keeping and neglect that which He has said will exist with Him for all eternity -who's responsible for what is stored in themselves? This helps them see the real battle between flesh and spirit...

God has spoken specifically to this 2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV) [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. as the book of enoch is not Scripture then it contains no promises from God! Not even guaranteed truth!

My studied place thus far: I believe it is in actual reality that the uncreated substance is Spirit John 4:24 (KJV) [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. To answer this we must examine where sin originated: God states it was lucifer: John 8:44 (KJV) [44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And it was in Lucifers desire to rebel against the s/Spiritual purpose in his own existence... God tells us that Lucifer was given elevated status of the other angels by: appearance: Ezekiel 28:13a (KJV) [13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: Ezekiel 28:17a (KJV) [17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: by placement: Ezekiel 28:14a (KJV) [14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; by abillity: Ezekiel 28:14b (KJV) thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:13a (KJV) the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:16a (KJV) [16] By the multitude of thy merchandise The Lord tells us that all creations purpose is Romans 1:20 (KJV) [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. By this all we can understand that high place and abilities were given to Lucifer for the purpose of elevating the understanding of the other angels in God's abilities by that which He had creatively placed in Lucifer... this is where the origin of sin began. Lucifer instead of enjoying his purpose and fulfilling it as God intended, he rebelled... Because of the reality that all was come from God and even the perfection within himself he had nothing to rebel against God with... he was forced by desperation to be other than what he was by beginning the lie- he, himself, would be god... So, in short, sin is the absence of God which cannot be and has no place in all eternity for God exists omnipresence- thus the creation of the lake of fire where only God's wrath abides forever without end... evil is the presentation of lie in action and there exists nothing of God in it... hence the reason God is burning up all 1st creation and removing all memory of such as it also has no place in the knowledge of good...

In Genesis chapter 1 there exist no sin, no law, just God's perfection in creation of both heaven and earth and that which they contained: Genesis 2:1 (KJV) This includes all that was created both in heaven /earth [1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. This is complete perfection in both [3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: reiteration of entirety of existing because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. There exists no law as all was permissible to eat Genesis 1:29 (KJV) This is structured grammatically as permissible not commandment [29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Something has changed in God's creation from chapter 1 into chapter 2 because now we see the first law given in creation Genesis 2:17 (KJV) this is a commandment / law [17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. We know by Scripture where there is no law there exist no sin Romans 4:15 (KJV) [15] Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Thus, biblically we can conclude that after the sanctification God placed upon all of His creation- transgression has entered into the creation. We know it was not Adam and Eve- so what is left in Scripture is the fall of Lucifer... Isaiah 14 and Ezekial 28... There is no record of them eating of the tree of life but there is record of them eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil... Genesis 3... There is this logic however: if eating of the tree 'death would occur'... then it must be understood life was eternal, in such, no death existed prior to the eating of... The Bible does give us record as to why God removed them from garden and the tree of life: Genesis 3:22 (KJV) [22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: [23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. [24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Now the obedience to God's record is to not add or take away from this accounting of this Scripture...

1 Peter 1:7 (KJV) [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: