brakelite

Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. And you are reverting to your personal self-defense default mechanism "you are working your way to heaven". In essence you are agreeing with Lucifer, "we don't need the laws of God to be like God". Though in your theology you have reworded it somewhat, by saying the laws "no longer apply to me because I am a Gentile Christian." Essentially, you are claiming that God has removed the foundational laws of His government to accommodate sinners so they can be holy without a reminder that they essentially are not holy at all, but going their own way and doing their own thing. Just like their master.

From my favourite author.... As your conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, you have seen something of the evil of sin, of its power, its guilt, its woe; and you look upon it with abhorrence. You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape, the more you realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him--what can you do to obtain it? It is peace that you need--Heaven's forgiveness and peace and love in the soul. Money cannot buy it, intellect cannot procure it, wisdom cannot attain to it; you can never hope, by your own efforts, to secure it. But God offers it to you as a gift, "without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1. It is yours if you will but reach out your hand and grasp it. The Lord says, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Ezekiel 36:26. You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. This is the lesson which Jesus taught while He was on earth, that the gift which God promises us, we must believe we do receive, and it is ours.

I fully agree that very few are 'conforming to the image of Christ', and being 'transformed by the renewing of their minds', but many are claiming to be by default in their pretensions to holiness and righteousness while not in obedience to His Word. Some extricate themselves from this seeming paradox through a false humility claiming that because they are so corrupt, they cannot possibly obey God's commandments.

Upon his appearance on earth, Satan, after possibly millenia developing a mindset that said "I can be like the Most High without being subject to the laws of the Most High", immediately continued on the campaign trail to bring as many as possible onto his side by suggesting to Eve, "you can be like God" without being subject to the law of the Most High, that law being "don't eat of this tree". (Many other laws were broken by Eve on that occasion though, not just that specific commandment). The church is following Eve's example, even to the point of believing that while in a state of disobedience, they shall not die.

Satan wanted to be like God but not for all of God's wonderful qualities....he wanted to be like God so he could be worshipped, IMO. You have to delineate here; satan didn't want to be like God except for that. When Lucifer began his rebellion, there must have been long politicking and a process by which he managed to convince the other angels as to the 'rightness' of his suggestions. He didn't come to them saying, "let us be evil". No, he must have been more subtle than that, and in the beginning (maybe even today in a warped twisted sort of way) he would have genuinely thought he could do a better job, just like any opposition party to the governing power, they believe they can do better. I know its difficult to comprehend that the devil could have at some stage in his ambitious career change, been even remotely altruistic and well meaning, but why not? Despite his obvious pride and self-exaltation, which could well have developed over a prolonged period of time, there is no reason to believe that his desire to replace Christ in the celestial order of things began with good intentions. However, cherishing his pride, and resisting what I am sure must have been some very serious pleadings by the faithful angels and God Himself, (as we know God is merciful and long-suffering) he would have distanced himself further and further away from those loving principles upon which the government was founded upon, and to which he was set up to protect. The church today rejects those same laws as having been "nailed to the cross" and are seeking glory without them. An impossibility.

We are told in Isaiah 14 :13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. We see here that Lucifer aka Satan aka great red dragon aka accuser of brethren...wanted to be like God. So what is God like? "Gracious, merciful, longsuffering, full of goodness and truth"...we know God to be a God of love, integrity, compassion, grace and mercy. So when we read that Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High, is there any reason to believe that Lucifer wanted to be evil, malicious, vindictive, wicked and selfish in the manner we know he turned out? I think not. I think he wanted to be just like God. So.....what went wrong?????? When these thoughts of self exaltation came to him, where was he and what was he doing? Ezekiel 28:11 ¶ Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Lucifer was a "Covering Cherub". Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. We see here that the sanctuary or tabernacle in the wilderness was a copy or a small scale model of things in heaven. In that sanctuary in the wilderness that Moses built there were a number of items of furniture each one representative of a spiritual reality in heaven. I will go further into this as we progress, but in the case of the ‘cherub that covers’ we will go to Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. Note that the cherubs on either side of the ark of the covenant had their wings spread out over the ark, ‘covering’ the mercy seat. It was upon the mercy seat between the cherubim that God rested and communed with Moses. And it was under the mercy seat within the ark that resided the two tables of the ten commandments. The ark itself represented the throne of God, and His law, the ten commandments, the foundation of His government in heaven. The heavenly law of course was a law of love, which the earthly Ten Commandments were a detailed exposition.The two cherubs were comissioned to guard the throne, to protect God’s laws. This was Lucifer’s exalted position, “until iniquity was found in thee”. Iniquity is sin…sin is transgression against God’s law. (1 John 3:4). Therefore Lucifer rebelled against the very law he was created to protect. Therefore Lucifer sought to "be like God" through selfish ambition and self-exaltation. He sought to be "like God" without reference to the laws of love upon which heaven is founded. Is the church today doing the same thing? Attempting to be "conformed into the image of the Son of God " without reference to the laws of love upon which the kingdom of God is founded?

What I know is although as you have often said, and is correct, that Rome is the figurehead, Rome ultimately is but another tool...a puppet...in the hands of Satan, the master puppeteer. Know this also, that behind and in among the leaders and higher echelons of the Roman apostasy are occultists and Luciferians...just as there are in Islam and in Freemasonry, as well as in secret societies. And these leaders are ALL connected...all on the same page...all reading the same script...and all acting their own peculiar parts in the grand design of slavery, deception, and control.

The pre-trib rapture doctrine which I believe to be false, robs God of His greatest victory. To reveal His character and the image of Christ fully in His people. The tribulation and coming crisis is going to be the most horrendous final attempt of the enemy to unseat the faithful from their rightful place in Christ. The tribulation will not bring about a change in God's people, the tribulation will reveal what God has already accomplished in His people. By then the harvest will be ripe. The tribulation is spawned because the true loving character of God's people will stand as an open rebuke to the world, who will hate them with a passion. The sheep and goats will at that time be separated. Like Cain and Abel, the righteous one will be hated. "And all nations shall hate you for my name's sake". The tribulation is God's opportunity to reveal His glory and power in His people. In the worst time in history, when Satan will be using every last vestige of his power to deceive, to coerce, to persecute, to destroy, knowing his time is short, and God's people standing faithful despite all the pressure and lies and slander and calumny being hurled against them, and doing so in love and patience and meekness of Spirit, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus, (Revelation 14:12) then shall all the purposes and mind and heart of God be fully vindicated in all His glory. Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

I know where you are coming from. The analogy the Bible itself uses, in Joel for example, is of the former and later rain. The former rains in Israel was that rain that was taken advantage of in the sowing of the crops. The latter rain was that which ripened the fruit. Spring, and Autumn. So to with Pentecost. That was the former rain of the Holy Spirit which watered the word of the gospel, the latter rain to come, I believe, in our time will ripen the fruit for harvest. (Revelation 14). In between times there are light showers, sufficient to bring individuals to repentance and point them to their Savior. But the great work of the gospel in these last days (to all the world then the end will come) will not finish with any less manifestation of the power of God than marked its opening. But OneLight, I do think it has begun to fall, in isolated places there is a manifestation of power of God...we do not see it so much in the west, but in China, Africa, Papua New Guinea, even in the Middle East among Muslims, there are dreams, visions, people speaking in languages they have never learned but understood by thousands in meetings...people being baptised into Christ hundreds at a time. Thousands coming to Christ with simple child-like faith. As we consecrate our lives in love for mankind and devote all our energies ad means to the gospel, then God will pour out His Spirit upon all men, decisions will finally be made for or against, and Christ will come.

I agree that there has been throughout Christendom, a unity with Christ that has resulted in many movemets and conversions all of which were impossible without that unity of purpose and Spirit. But what I see in the future is an outpouring of much greater magnitude than was evidenced 2000 years ago at Pentecost. Satan knows this, and has counterfieted it in the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements. The 'false fire' of Toronto and the Benny Hinn and Copeland lies have deceived thousands....but there will come a time of such primitive godliness and power that only those who receive it will have any idea of its validity while those in deception will consider it a lie. Those receiving it will be classed as demonic...false prophets...fanatics...but the fruits of their work will be evidenced by the ripening of the fruit under that latter rain. In the days immediately preceding the second coming, there will be such a division between the goats and the sheep that there will be no-one left in between to fence sit. We ain't seen nothin yet.

You say 'that day'. I think we need to be united before then...we may not know it as we wont know each other but under the latter rain, if we are going to receive the latter rain at all, we must, as the disciples were, of one heart and one mind.

Such a unity of Spirit will be established under truth. As the bride makes herself ready, being perfected so as to be no spot or blemish, all members thereof will be wearing the same garment and following the same Savior. Unity will come by default...as from all distant points heading to one Source, just as the vanishing points merge into one, so will all merge into Christ. This can never be accomplished by man. It is, and will continue to be, a work of the Spirit. That is why I try (not always successfully), to stress that the most important focus of the Christian walk is to cleave to Christ, whether we are seeking to walk in holiness, or stressing over finances, or suffering depression, or confused over doctrine. All the answers are found in Him who IS the Truth.

I would ask what difference does it make what church I belong to if I speak the truth? Truth is not peculiar to evangelicals. The old adage of attacking the messenger rather than the message is prevalent on this forum when people run out of arguments against the message. Your opinion of what 'might' take place in the future surely cannot be more trustworthy than documented and confirmed history? The falling away was in fact the establishment of the Papacy. What future falling away could possibly match the capture of billions over 1700 years, and holding over 2 billion people today in deception? What more are you waiting for? What greater apostasy could there possibly be? Particularly when one considers most of Protestantism has long since abandoned her reform theology for dispensationalism and futurism? Babylon has long since fallen as per Revelation 14:6-12. And on the same track, what more could a future so-called antichrist individual do to fulfill prophecy that the Papacy hasn't already fulfilled? What criteria required of Antichrist has not been fulfilled by the Roman Church? Because I could name several criteria that a future individual could not fulfill discounting any possibility of a future individual being the antichrist. One being that he cannot uproot 3 horns which were uprooted and vanished from history in the 6th century. It would be a neat trick to resurrect 3 extinct European nations and then destroy them again.

There is a cry going forth from mainstream Christianity and among charismatics that the current disunity within Christendom needs to be addressed, and that uniting on those points upon which all can agree must be pursued with vigour in order to keep the Christian message alive and relevant to a post-modern society. Whilst it is indeed true that the number of Christian denominations, and independent churches,are many, and increasing exponentially, ‘unity’ at all costs, particularly at the cost of truth, must be avoided by any and all means. The Bible tells us (for those who claim the name of Christ and still believe in the Bible) that the time is coming that the only denominations will be those who have accepted the mark of the beast and are worshiping according to the government dictates. They are the daughters of the Mother, Babylon the Great. Because they have left the truth, they have become harlots in the same character as their mother from whom they originally came. This will leave only a small minority, a united movement who resist the majority traditions and pressures of the NWO, If they were at any stage a denomination, it has long been annulled by government decree due to their practicing their religion according to the Bible, and the Bible only. Teaching the true gospel, they will be accused of hate speech, hated of all nations for Christ’s sake, and be considered the execration of society. Accused of being the cause of God’s judgments falling upon the earth, they will in the end be sentenced to death. This is they who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.(Revel. 12:17; 14:12) They are the only ones patiently waiting for Christ’s coming. And the only ones to be translated when He appears in glory. The majority have long given up hope of the second coming; the Bible is no longer seen as relevant to modern society, its history shrouded even now in doubt and skepticism; and doctrine no longer viewed as necessary to salvation, because today there are as many roads that lead to heaven as there are that lead to Rome. The minority believers are united in the cause for truth, in the preaching of truth in the power of the Holy Spirit, in the living of truth by their living faith in the grace of God. One with Jesus and the Father, empowered by the Spirit of God, they love one another and their chief priority in life is to see as many people as possible come out of Babylon into a saving relationship with Christ. They have a Truth they know is not to be compromised, and with courage and selfless love for lost souls, they repudiate everything not in harmony with that Truth. Soon “let us be united” will be the rallying cry of the majority. And unite they will, but under a banner of error and deception. Beware of false calls to unity. Have a look at Matthew 24:4-9. Note that up to the first part of verse 7, the world is in utter disarray. Wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. This has been the state of this world since Cain slew Abel. Conflict has been the one constant thread that is woven throughout human history. But note that in verse 9 there is a major shift. We see the nations of the world united for the very first time…united against the church! But let us pause a little and also consider Revelation 13:3…all the world wondered after the beast…. 8: and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship.…14: and deceiveth them that dwell upon the earth…The whole world is going to be deceived into false worship. This will not be Islam. Babylon the Great is a symbol of the Roman Catholic Church. The world will be deceived into worshiping according to Roman tradition; they will believe they are worshiping according to the truth, for they are deceived. Thus the final great conflict of the ages is not between atheism and theism, but will be between two brothers, one worshiping according to truth and revelation, the other according to tradition and occultist and demonic new age philosophy. An end time repeat of Cain and Abel. What evils and wickedness that permeated religious intolerance during the 1ooo odd years of papal dominion in Europe during the dark ages will be repeated on a global scale with as much ardor, fanaticism, and violence as the worst of the inquisitions of the past. Our allegiances in those days will not about denominations but about truth and obedience to the commandments of God as opposed to the commandments of men. The coming separation of Christianity under the aegis of the false prophet is the separation we ought to be more concerned about. For then there will be only two sides. How do you know you wont be deceived along with the rest of the world? How do you know you aren’t already deceived and ripe picking for the coming NWO? What is it about your beliefs and faith that makes you different from the vast majority of Christianity who will take the side of the Antichrist and worship the beast and his image?

I agree. We personally, as an inherent virtue, are not good. But we can be, through the virtue of the Son of God, and are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. As we abide in the Vine, we cannot help but produce those good fruit of righteousness that is reflected in our character and lifestyles. If our lives are not conformed into the image of Christ, then that is stark evidence that we are not in Him. Thus if we are not in Him, we are not changed, we are still sinners, we are lost. That is how the angels know and recognise who are His when they harvest the ripe fruit of the earth. It is by their works. Their characters. Are they living in harmony with the laws of God or is their testimony merely empty words and a lie? We are not basically good, no. Not one of us. But by faith in the grace and power of God we most assuredly can be, and must be according to the light which we have been given, and living up to that light, in order to enter eternity.

They stopped their murdering. Could they have faith and yet continue in sin? God forbid. Their faith in the righteousness of Christ changed them. Their relationship with Him changed them. The (creative) power of the word in them changed them. By beholding (Christ) they were changed. They did not enter glory as sinners...murderers. Without that change...without the righteousness of Christ....without become new creatures...without the word of God (Christ in them, the hope of glory) they would still be sinners, sinning, and not be saved. No sinner receives eternal life. Sinners receive power to become children of God, and the children are the heirs, but first is that rebirth, the new creature must rise demonstrating the power and the glory of the almighty working in them. I agree that God isn't in the business of making good men better....He is in the business of making sinners into the image of Christ.

Perhaps Elijah should have joined the Canaanites because Israel had in its midst prophets of Baal? I suggested you study the IJ. You need to. Why open books if God "knows everything". Why have books? No-one in the church has ever taught, not E White or any other leaders of the faith, nor anyone I know of today, nor is it written in any of the books or pamphlets detailing our beliefs, that Sabbath keeping justifies anyone. What we DO teach is that if one desires to be fully sanctified, their lives ought to be in harmony with the laws of God. SDAs are not the only ones who teach this. The sticking point is the Sabbath...you reject the Sabbath but your only defense is to charge us with legalism. Good try but it doesn't work.

You have misunderstood me. When I said I don't pay tithe to a church that supports abortion, I meant precisely that. I don't pay tithe to a church that supports abortion. I don't pay tithe to the SDA church at all. As to the investigative judgement being works based, I disagree, but can fully understand your perspective. I came to the SDA church from a Pentecostal background...it was not without much investigation, prayer, and Bible study that I finally accepted and saw what the IJ meant to Adventists, and how Biblical it is. In fact, so Biblical, the second coming cannot take place until it's finished. Not only is that evident in prophecy, but in the types and symbolism of the OT sanctuary services and annual feast days. If you haven't done a complete study of it from an Adventist perspective, then it is inevitable that you end up with an incorrect notion of what it means. It is not a 'get out of jail free card' that many believe E White dreamed up to save the church from embarrassment in 1844. As to the law in general, and the Sabbath being a part of that, to claim just because we keep Sabbath it is therefore by default something we are doing in order to be saved, is somewhat disingenuous. You say this in the face of direct testimony that contradicts your opinion, thus judging the motives and practices of 20 million individuals (and that's just SDAs) all across the globe who honor what they know is still a day sanctified and blessed of God. The reason we promote it, is not because we believe we are saved by it, or that you will be lost without it, but because we know from prophecy the time is coming when our opposers will use a counterfeit as a a test of orthodoxy. SDAs have long been strong advocates for religious freedom, and it is in this context that we believe we should defend our right to observe Sabbath, and that our defense is both ethical in context of religious freedom, and Biblical in the context of what we know will come when having to face our accusers with their charges of heresy and civil disobedience. The loss of salvation comes when our enemies choose to persecute Sabbath keepers on the basis of civil legislation over-riding what we see as a commandment of God. Whether you disagree theologically with that is a side issue. What is the more important is the coercion and force (to the point of a death sentence) that will come that contravenes our rights to conscience. Shades of this exist everywhere. In Europe where the Catholic church is in the process of demanding Sunday laws (and succeeding)in respect of trade and commerce ...the current Sunday movement in the US which seeks to implement Sunday laws restricting trade and commerce...the former blue laws in the US (some of which, while not enforced, are still on the books)...even a suburb in my current city of Melbourne outlaws any tradesmen from doing business within that vicinity on Sundays. While these do not represent a direct threat to Sabbath keepers...and do not constitute a direct violation of my rights to worship, they do violate my rights to work. In a crisis situation, such as 9/11 but perhaps on a global scale, and in fear of the judgements of God, a Christian community could, and shall I believe, very easily increase the ante and forbid anyone to worship on any day other than Sunday. That will affect even those of you who have regard to no particular day. But the institutional churches who for centuries have regarded Sunday as a sacred day and essential to salvation, as does Catholicism, then your objections to SDAs keeping Sabbath takes on a whole new meaning. I think you need to look at things from our perspective...you may not agree with it, but you could at least come to a greater understanding to where we are coming from.

I suggest you do a study on that date, October 22, 1844. The date is correct. The event was wrong. Personally, I believe Jesus would have returned a long time ago if His church/bride was ready. His bride, even to this day, has trouble deciding if she really wants to go, and persists in wearing her own fashionable wedding garment rather than the one provided. All prophecy is conditional. Also take a look at the history of those events that led up to 1844. It wasn't just in the US that the second coming was being proclaimed. South America, Europe, and Africa had their share of evangelists who were unconnected, yet annointed and inspired to preach a message never before heard in Christendom...the fulfilling of prophecy. These messages brought about a revival in many paces among churches that had grown stagnant and lifeless, and which grew even more dead as they rejected the massage. This was a work of the Holy Spirit. It was for the express purpose to alert the church of the soon coming of Christ. That these preachers of righteousness got the event wrong, does not make them false prophets, particularly when it was God allowing them to be misled for His purposes. The imminence of the second coming was preached by Paul. It was taught by many of my own forbears who were not Adventists. It was taught by pentecostal churches 60 years ago.Many then would swear that Jesus was coming in their lifetime. I thought He would come by 1988, as did many evangelicals of the time. I still think He will come in my lifetime. Yet again, He may not. But imminence is a character of expectation that is desirable among God's people. That way we are all ready, whether it is for death or translation. I

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:15-17 (emphasis supplied) Does the above make Paul a false prophet because he declared he would be alive when Jesus returns?

Not that anyone is obliged to, but I am wondering if anyone is reading my posts? What exactly is wrong with the concept, which fulfils in every detail the prophecy, of pagan Rome being the restrainer, which after having been removed elsewhere, was the catalyst for the falling away creating the Papacy? History doesn't lie. Even the early church fathers recognised what was going on in front of their eyes, and the reformers recognised it as having happened in their own forbears' lifetimes and communities. And millions of true Christians lost their lives, their properties, and families as a result. This same scenario will be repeated with the same players, only on a global scale in our lifetime...in fact, we are eye-witnesses to these events as we write on this forum. But alas, all are blinded by Jesuit sophistry and are looking for a future bogey man who doesn't exist. All the while you are being cuckolded by the whore sitting in Rome.

There are 3 methods of interpreting prophecy. Preterism, Futurism, and Historicism.Adventists are historicists. That is, they consider prophecy a continuing unravelling of the vision or prophecy from the time it was given, unless clearly indicated otherwise. Take the subject of the antichrist as a prime example. Daniel was given several visions starting from the statue, then in Daniel 7 the 4 beasts, and the horns that grew from them, then in Daniel 8 the two beasts, Daniel 9 gives us a remarkably accurate Messianic prophecy giving us valuable clues to the time periods involved, then in 11 a documented picture of the entire period from his time to the second coming. Each prophecy covered pretty much the same time period. From Babylon to the Kingdom of God. Starting from the skeleton of the prophetic picture in Daniel 2, the subsequent [prophecies fill in the details. Adventists do not find any evidence nor reason to take a portion of them and place them into a future time spot oi ts own with a gap of a couple of thousand years in between. We believe that as we study history, we find the fulfilment of prophecy, and can with reasonable confidence discern what is yet to come, as history does repeat, and there is nothing new under the sun. From the historicist perspective, there is no gap of 2000 years where God failed to document the reign of the papacy. Futurism and preterism, both invented by Jesuits, hide the true Antichrist within that 2000 years period, deceiving the entire Christian world. It wasn't Ellen White who first taught the historicist hermeneutic. The reformers were historicists, as were the early church fathers, such as Justin Martyr, Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, and others.

Dont need to look to society to see this...this is a description of the church. I see some of these characteristics among us on this forum.

Fairly much with you there. It is dangerous, even insulting, to create analogies from nature (such as the clover) to describe the Godhead. Or from mathematics. However we describe it, we are denigrating Him. Like you, I would rather just cleave to what scripture says. "But to us there is but one God, the Father...." ...."thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God...." .....and of course the holy Spirit is described as the Spirit of Christ and of God. It is their Spirit.

I don't understand God's love for me. I don't understand why, and the older I get, the less I understand. A momentary time of insanity may envelop me, and I think I have it all sussed, then my eyes are opened, sanity prevails, and I realise my recognition and acceptance of my mortality and ignorance is in fact an expression of clarity. Sure, I know He created me, and therefore He loves me. However, to be honest, I am a long way from the image of God I am intended to be. I thank God however that I have come a long way from where I was...a warped, selfish, perverted, hopeless, helpless, rebellious, evilly inclined moral virus. And yet God loved me even then! I don't understand that. If I come to a point in my life wherein is perplexity and uncertainty, I tend to think about what God's will would be for me in that situation, and then pray that such and such should happen, please, and the sooner the better. After having suggested to God the best way He ought to be handling this particular difficulty, and pointing out to HIm that His best laid plans don't seem to be working out, I wonder how it was that the devil got the better of HIm. Yet despite such stupid reasoning on my part, He still loves me. I don't understand that. Why does God love me? I have no idea. Calvary proves He does, but doesn't tell me why. It certainly isn't because I've earned it. The Bible informs me that my own heart can at times deceive me into believing that when I pray for something, I can expect to receive it because I deserve it. I because I have some inherent right to expect favours. But no, I have no rights. What I do have are promises. But not rights. And the most outrageous promise is the one God is most determined to keep. That promise is to recreate me in His own image! After 6000 years of hereditary failure, slandering of His reputation, desecrating all that He has called holy, abusing all the people He loans us to cherish and love, poisoning myself and others through my addictions, lusts, and pride, corrupting the very place He has given me for a home, and He still wants to recreate me in His image? Why not throw me away and start again? What manner of love is this? I don't understand it. What am I that God is mindful of me? What is this man that God would ever give any consideration to? I do not have any more light on that than did David when He wrote it 3000 odd years ago. So why? Honestly, I don't think it matters. All He asks of us is that we believe it. Maybe it will always be a mystery, just to make eternity all the more interesting. So, where do I go from here? I have discovered that God loves me regardless of circumstance, regardless of my behaviour, regardless of motives, habitat, purpose, past, present, or future. God's love is constant, infinite, complete, self-sacrificial, all-encompassing, immovable. In the words of Paul, love bears all things,believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. God does not decide or choose to love. Love is who He is. He can't help Himself. He IS love. Everything He does is motivated ny love. Even the destruction of the wicked is for their own good! So when I read that all things work together for good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose, I believe it. When I read that He so loved me that He gave His only begotten Son to die for me, I believe it. When I read that along with Jesus, He will freely give me all things, I believe it. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. The whys...I will leave that for later. Much later. It is enough that He does. Thank you Lord.