ENOCH2010

We will find out during the 1000 year reign, when the Lord gives Israel all their land back

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist I understand them as the Law and the Prophets as Christ taught them. Revelation 11 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. They are real people ... not an allegory.. a real event that will happen Not necessarily. The Law and the Prophets were embodied in Jesus, I think we'd agree on that. He gave the true undestanding of the Law and the Prophets in all of his teaching. That teaching was passed on to the Church through the apostles. The proper teaching of the Law and the Prophets antagonized those who 'live upon the Land', the Jews of the time. They despised the teaching of the Apostles and the Early Church to the point that they assisted Rome in their persecution (see Ch 13, the second Beast). The 2 witnesses are overcome by the Beast from the Pit (Nero), so this has to do with the martyrs of the Neronian persecution. The Law and Prophets are embodied in them through their teaching and beliefs. The persecution of the Church under Nero was 1260 days (three and a half years), yet this prophecy speaks of three and a half days. Who else was in the grave for three and a half days? Jesus. John is insinuating that these martyrs are like Christ in their death. It's also a Jewish tradition/belief that the soul remains with the body for 3.5 days before departing to judgment, if I recall. So then, they ARE real people (the martyrs) and this DID happen. About that portion of leaving them in the street and not permitting them to be buried, it's historical that Christian martyrs were often crucified and their bodies left hanging for days on the crosses, some even until they decomposed. BB you've got a little explaining to do 1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished? 2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain? 3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem?

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist

Hi Enoch, I was once in the Dispensational pre-trib, pre-millenial camp. I tend to favor a full Preterist view but I'm still open to a partial Preterist view of Scripture. I believe every passage of Israel of old has been fulfilled in the 1st century. I believe that Scripture supports this and I believe that history supports this. That would mean that we now live in the kingdom age, the eternal kingdom, and those on earth worship the King spiritually, just like they did in the 1st century church on earth. But Paul said our citizenship is in heaven. Whether there is another coming of Christ (Revelation 20-22) I don't currently believe so, and so far I have not seen the biblical evidence to support this, but I do believe that when we die we still are either in the presence of the Lord or separated from His presence, depending on whether by God's mercy Christ Jesus is our Lord or not. No, I do not believe the Lord is coming back bodily again. He came bodily when He came to Israel for it took a man, the Second Adam, to reconcile man again to God with a new and better covenant and fulfillment of the first. Just like you, I'm sure, and just like the 1st century church did I believe that I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling for I believe God is working in me, as He did in them. Peter Thanks for the answer PGA. I can see that the partial preterist view may have some merit,as in with the destruction of the temple. A lot of the Revelation sounds as if it is a repeat of history,with a third temple being built,but some of the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet.The 1000 year reign for example, I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical.

PGA I had never heard of the preterist view of scripture until a couple years ago,I guess I have led a sheltered life. May I ask what is your view of the second comming, is the Lord comming back bodily again, or is everything in the past?

The muslim god and prophet must be pretty weak beings if humans have to defend them and their honor.

obamey is doing just what he wanted to do.(Destroy the USA)

They don't pay taxes. When they fill out a W2 they claim 15 or 20 dependents so very little tax is withheld

We could save alot of money on bombs if we just dropped bacon on them,if they are that afraid of it.

My opinion is the questions will have simple answers,so they can give away alot of money.

One prophecy that has been fulfilled is, Jesus came and gave his life to save the lost ,one prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet, is that same Jesus is comming back a second time to live with the believers forever.

Whitestone correct me if i'm wrong but you seem to be trying to provide a way for the sons of God spoken about in Genesis to reappear after the flood,as in Og the giant and Goliath the giant.If so the same way they were born in Genesis, would explain how they were born after the flood,better than the stuff you are putting forth .The Bible says that only 8 people survived the flood,we as Christians have to go with what is written. I believe the Nephilim were a cross between fallen angles and the daughters of man as the bible says.Could that happen again probably yes,the Bible dosen't say .

I have a couple questions about the fallen angles, First I believe the fallen angles are the sons of God spoken about in Gen. My questions are Do you believe fallen angles are the sons of God or the sons of Seth ? As in the days of Noah,does that suggest that they are going to reappear ? Is there any way to prove either belief ?

Interplanner I've read your post for several days trying to understand what your saying. I thought I had you pegged as a preterits,and still think maybe that's what you believe.Then again you post something that makes me think you have a back ground in history but don't believe as a preterits. Let me ask you a question that possibly clear this up for me, Do you believe the second coming of the Lord is going to be a physical return, and yet in the future?

At the resurrection of Jesus many of the saints rose with him. Meaning,the dead, that had faith in Christ who had died prior to his resurrection.The dead in Christ since his resurrection are present with the Lord until his return, those he will bring with him to be reunited with their new bodies.

Very well done Gary, a great response to a very misinformed person.

We could start a discussion topic on this Where is the discussion at, I want to find out about this.I must live a sheltered life,I've never heard of such a thing.

All the above,and I needed everyone of them. I also raised my 2 boys the same way.

Marv, this is my view of the 2 resurrections. The first resurrection happens at the end of the tribulation,at the second comming of the Lord. Call it rapture,call it the first resurrection,call it the catching away,it doesn't matter it's all the same thing.The Lord will descend from the sky with the trump of God,bringing the spirits of the one's that have died prior to this with Him. Then the dead bodies will rise from the grave,and the rest of the believers that are alive at that time, will join them in the air to receive their immortal bodies. We go with the Lord as he descends on the Mount of Olives to begin the 1000 year reign on this Earth. During the 1000 year reign the Lord will destroy all enemies of righteousness and Israel . After the 1000 years are finished,prior to the new heavens and new Earth, will be the second resurrection,which is the rest of the dead. They will rise to be judged and receive their immortal bodies,some to join in joy's of the Lord,some to be doomed forever in torment. Notice the Book of Life is also opened at this second resurrection,if only the doomed were at this resurrection, they're would be no need for the Book of Life,only the books that contain the record of evil deeds . Marv I know I don't understand all the end time writings,that's why I still study and listen to what others have to say about the subject.The only view I can find nothing about in the Bible,is another resurrection (for the rapture to happen with) prior to the 2 I have listed

xero The Rapture (harpozo) is not a false doctrine. Read 2 Thes 2 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not yo become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, Saying the the Day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. If one can answer these two questions, then one know when the Rapture will occur. Some of those in the 1at Century thought they had miss the (harpozo) Rapture. Then Paul gives specifics. xero, why are you not a martyr now. Tens of thousand of Christian have already been martyred. They are with the Lord now. There is no big difference of when one is martyred. Many are not martyred, those believers are with the Lord. Martyrdom is not graduation, it does not bring salvation. Enoch Which Resurrection is the first to begin? In Christ Montana Marv Marv you know we have only 1 first resurrection spoken about in the Bible and you know it happens at the second comming of the Lord . Of course the Thes. thought the resurrection had already happened,they had knowledge of all the old testament saints that had risen with the Lord on the third day.That's the resurrection they thought they had missed.

I can AMEN that My thoughts exactly

and with the other reference so what is happening here then? a rapture or ressurection and if a rapture how do you futurists ignore the fact that he speaks of the bodily ressurection then mentions the changing of us? the later is in reference to the ressurection of the dead. That is why a pre-trib rapture isn't possible,the first resurrection and the second comming is the same event. To be a rapture they're has to be a resurrection at the same time.

Marv I'm going to keep asking that same question until one of the pre-tribers can answer it.

All excellent points. There is another very large problem with post-trib doctrine that you will never hear it's adherents talk about. It's their reasoning as to why the church has to go through the Tribulation. It is not logical, nor is it doctrinally sound. Not only is it not logical, nor doctrinally sound, but Scripturally impossible. I will be posting explanations later. In His grace pilgrim pilgrim you seem to know alot about the pre-trib rapture,would you answer a question for me. At which resurrection listed in the Bible is the rapture going to happen with? A) The first resurrection B) The second resurrection C) Another resurrection not mentioned in the Bible

This one