Zemke

In speaking of the Day of the Lord on the day of Pentecost, Peter called it that great and glorious day. Now the day of the Lord for most will be darkness and not light but for those who believe, it will be glorious. But Peter also said the sun will turn to darkness and the moon to blood - BEFORE - that great and glorious day of the Lord comes. Acts2 Jesus said the same thing in Matthew 24. Timing isn't the biggest issue overall when it comes to the return of Christ. Yes we are to watch but being ready is what is most important about prophetic teaching. We have turned it into a timing madness instead of a holiness, walking in the Spirit, exhortation. Oil is the essential aspect because it seems to me when we know to look up the issue will not be who was on first or what was on second, but do we have oil in our lamps? The Lord can come for me tonight and He can come for you tonight, but the resurrection/rescue? I believe we will know when it's the season. Not the day or hour but we will know to start looking up. The time to get the oil is now. There will be a day the ark door will close.

This is excellent. Thank you, praise God.

It could be Jesus was drawing on Jeremiah 8, which I'll write out. But I think the disconnect comes from dispensational thinking that the fig tree is specifically speaking of the Jews. which it is in the sense of them being Gods people. The problem with dispensational thinking is the inability to recognize by extension that we are Gods people and the cursing of the fig tree has as much to do with the state of the church as we approach and are consumed into Babylon the Great. If we want to know what Gods people will be like before Babylon the Great, we only need to read what Gods people were like before Babylon. We actually are like that now. And what is going on with ecumenism in the church, Isaiah stating, "My people are filled with influences from the east." and the ramblings of the world is the cry that Babylon is coming and is. I believe the mistake we have made in the west is not so much having a separate study of prophecy but keeping it separate. I believe the coming of the Lord is infused through all of scripture. And speaking of infusion, we are grafted into the people of God. Anyway here is the verse from Jeremiah 8, it needs read in the whole of coarse. 13: "I will surely snatch them away," declares the LORD; "There will be no grapes on the vine, and no figs on the tree, and the leaf shall wither; and what I have given them shall pass away." The word is just as active today as it was in the day it was written. Jesus spoke of faith in the cursing of the fig tree and it was the same for the Jews in the Old Covenant as it is in the New. Now I'm not sure how much this may have to do with further understanding the fig tree in Matthew 24 but this thread has certainly got me thinking about a few things.

Well, I agree the Jews being back in the land is a sign but not necessarily the fig tree being Israel. And I wasn't being dogmatic about the tree of life, a little grieved I injected it because you've pointed that out and bypassed anything else I wrote. Anyway, Adam and Eve were sewing fig leaves as a garment. Vegetation was most likely a little larger then but from the start a works righteousness was not going to cover. Something died and the Lord provided animal skins as clothing. The wages of sin is death. The cursed fig tree with leaves and no fruit is in type speaking of a works righteousness. God is wanting fruit and as Jesus goes on in explanation He is talking about faith. Without faith we can not please God. The fruit is faith. James tells us faith without works is dead. The leaves protect the fruit from the harsh sun. The leaves are needed or the fruit dries up. We are saved by faith and preserved by walking in it. Everything you do, do unto the Lord, pray always. And the example in Luke is about repentance because our Father is serious about His judgement. Acts 17:30 "God is now calling on all peoples everywhere to repent. And He has appointed a man to judge the world." Luke's section dealing with the fig tree is a serious section of scripture dealing with the harshness and severity of God. But He is also a God of grace and second chances, but judgement is looming. Types are meant to illuminate doctrine. The fig tree and it's leaves helps to illuminate and understand a statement like "Without faith we cannot please God." "Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God." "Faith without works is dead." The leaves are actually needed. Or the question, Will the Son of Man find faith on the earth when he returns? It's more simple and more deep than we give it credit for.

I do see when reading the texts what you are saying about Israel. That's fine. However, I'm not sure they settle an absolute that the fig tree in Matthew 24 represents Israel full stop. I do not have a problem with that assessment because Israel being born as a nation is a major difference as to what is different now as apposed to all other times in history. I get it. I just believe there is more to this. Not that I have it understood but that it just doesn't seem settled that the fig tree is Israel and that is that. The story of the fig tree in Luke deals with repentance in context and also God being serious about His coming judgement. During that same occasion Jesus was saying "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled." and "Do you suppose I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division." So yes Jesus's ministry was to the house of Israel and much of what He as saying was spoke to the Jews. But I think if we insert the fig tree representing the tree of life it also fits nicely in this scripture. The tree being cursed in Mark and in Matthew both deal with faith. James wrote, "Faith without works is dead." The fruit needs the leaves to protect the fruit from the harsh sun, but what good does the leaf serve when there is no fruit. Without faith we cannot please God. A works righteousness brings death. Once again The fig tree being representative of a person representing life works well here also. And in Luke it is mentioned "behold the fig tree and all the trees." This is interesting in the aspect of the trees representing peoples or nations but as you asked earlier, why? I'm fine with people wanting to believe the fig tree is Israel and that's that, but there is a parable about the trees in Judges 9 and I believe there is more to understand.

That's understandable and something to consider. It's just Jesus says "when you see ALL these things" and Luke's account tells us to "behold the fig tree and ALL the trees." Luke 21 I'm not finding the coming kingdom rule over the nations bearing fruit of repentance either in this particular scripture or in current events. It's not for not thinking dynamically but I'm not real sure we can read that into the sense of this text. Or maybe we are simply seeing the bigger picture from different angles or different applications surrounding different perspectives. When Jesus is saying when you see all these things I'm thinking He is speaking of the whole of the discourse.

There are some who have taught the fig tree in Jewish metaphor is symbolic of the tree of life. Such as when Jesus telling Nathanial He saw him under the fig tree. John 1: 45-51. What Jesus was saying to Nathanial was that He saw him from the foundations of the world. Johns Gospel to some scholars is the most Jewish in literary style of second temple first century teaching. He starts using the old creation narrative to show forth the new creation in Jesus Christ. Miracle with water on the third day of creation and Jesus does a miracle with water on the third day. Small light, John the Baptist, large light, Jesus. John wrote his gospel so they would believe Jesus is the Messiah. The places He walked and His actions fulfilled what the Messiah had come to accomplish. He is always going up or had come from or preparing to go to Jerusalem around a feast time. Even chapter 10 He was in Jerusalem for Hanukah. He made the statement "I am the light of the world" at the Festival of Lights. The center light is what each light on the 8 days is lit from. Jesus was saying I am the light that lights all other lights. They then picked up stones to stone Him.

Hi Marilyn, I had thought the same for some time. The reason I changed my mind is when Paul is speaking of Israel in Romans he uses the olive tree symbolically and in Jeremiah 11: 15,16 we read: "What right has My beloved in My house when she has done many vile deeds? Can the sacrificial flesh take away from you your disaster, so that you can rejoice?" The LORD called your name, "A green olive tree, beautiful in fruit and form;" With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are worthless. I like to try and keep metaphors in flux so to speak, or in a word not set doctrine from a type but allow the type to illuminate a doctrine. For now anyway I'm sitting with the olive tree being more symbolic.

I agree. The Jews being back in the land is most definitely a sign, an important one, but verse 33 in Matthew 24 says, "...when you see ALL these things..." A time like no other. Just like the days of Noah, like the days of Lot. The accumulation and depth of what will come on the earth will bring a time of darkness like no other. It won't be something new, something that hasn't happened before. The evil that will posses the son of perdition has always been around and manifest. The plagues have all happened before, the wars, the fear, the anger, waves of the sea roaring, earthquakes. You name it, it will be there, has been and is. The intensity of the evil that will build will be the darkest. The restrainer will be taken out of the way. Jesus said, "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work." The pattern we have seen before containing a three and a half year period is the ministry of Christ. The ministry of anti-Christ seems to be 3.5 years also. Most first coming prophecies were fulfilled in the full life of Jesus Christ, and most of those in the last 3.5 years, and most of those in the last week. Birth pangs need to be applied in some manner like this. Jesus spoke of birth pangs in Matthew 24. The reason we have a tough time connecting the trees' parable in Judges is because we are reading a Jewish book with western minds. Or, gentile minds rather than Hebraic minds. It's more simple on one hand but more difficult on the other. The Word of God theologically contains both simple math and physics. Keeping things simple, understanding the basic aspects at all times helps with our understanding of the more difficult aspects. And end times understanding has a heap of scripture to understand.

Being that the statement is in the Olivet discourse I'm going to vote for signs of the times. The olive tree seems to be representative of Israel more than the fig tree. But what's interesting is in Luke's version, chapter 21 it's stated "Behold the fig tree and all the trees." There is a parable, in Judges 9, dealing with Abimelech when one of his brothers, Jotham, escapes the execution of the rest of his brothers by Abimelech's hand, making Abimelech king, Jotham then stands on a mount speaking out a parable about the trees.

Something that helped put much of these timing issues in perspective, for me and many others I know, is pattern. Think of it in more simple terms. Such as most prophecy concerning the first coming happened in say 35 years. Most of those, three and a half years. A specific number. And most of those in the last week. No pattern is exactly the same every time, which is why dispensationalists have a harder time fitting that into their thinking. But if we look at the repetition of prophecy recognizing pattern we can see how these events in Revelation coexist or are concurrent in some way. It will not be three and a half years of constant hell on earth but a growing pain of one thing after another getting worse with each moment then easing up like birth pangs until the climax. How it will work out, God only knows, but there will be a false peace with the beginning of the ministry of anti-Christ. He will have answers to growing problems in the world and those problems are growing. A babe can understand these things and we need to be much more simple and clear in our approach. It isn't the one who has everything figured out that will make it thru much deception but the one who loves the truth. Jesus is the truth. 2thess. tells us God will send a delusion upon those who do not love the truth. And I want to add that a good reason birth pangs are mentioned by Jesus is the pain of child birth brings forth life. And we are heading toward the birth of a new dawn and new life. Life everlasting with a truly righteous King. This is Why Peter called the Day of the Lord that "Great and Glorious Day" in the second chapter of Acts.

As an example of false prophecy, misuse of typology, gematria, and other things, this is supreme. First rule of typology is; Never make a doctrine from a type. Typology illuminates doctrine. For instance garment or clothing, nakedness. The demoniac was naked but then found to be clothed sitting at the feet of Jesus. In type it's speaking of the garment of salvation. There is a salvation theme in much of the miracles Jesus did. When we have a wrong perspective of who Jesus is it becomes inevitable that convoluted intra personal opinionated nonsense spews from our lips. As the OP clearly exemplifies. And to add, when our doctrines are wrong, our prophecies will be wrong.

I haven't been around for a while and was just passing through, curious of news events, but to set things in balance a little I'll share a few quotes from Taz Russell, the founder of JW's "The man Jesus is dead, forever dead." "The life force of Michael was placed into the ovum of Mary" You see, this is where we get the belief that JWs believe Jesus was Michael the arch angel, but was He? What's Michaels life force? To a JW life force is impersonal, no personality, except for Gods personal life force. God could swap the life force of a Moose with mine and we wouldn't know it happened. And a body without life force is dead, forever dead. So Michael is dead forever dead also, right? So who, or what, is the spirit creature sitting at the right hand of the father? They've not returned since I've asked that question. Find a webpage of a ministry that rescues and witnesses to JWs and they will have an abundance of literature including writings from their beginning beliefs.

I had written a longer reply a few days ago and turned away from it mostly because of you, George, being the founder of the site. But I realize something should be said even more so because you are just that. the founder. If this site is endorsing people like Francis then It needs to check itself and if checking itself finds the NAR a reliable bedfellow then I would ask to be thrown off the site or whatever is possible like banned but not listed as a guest as some have been.

A basic premise of that phrase is people being oblivious to what is coming upon the earth even though they have been warned. People were more interested in the return of Jesus 30 years ago than they are today. Even leaders of church movements are telling their followers not to pay attention to end time prophecy, It's a distraction. The seals grow in intensity but notice they are limited to percentages but peace will be taken from the earth. I mean look at even the peaceful nations how friction is growing between ethnic groups. Nation against nation in Matth, 24 is ethnos against ethnos. The stage is being set. The seals are an intensity of what tribulation the world has always gone through hence great tribulation, they correspond to the progression in Matth 24 but we see at the sixth seal the great and strong men and others hiding from the wrath of the lamb that, it would seem, is apparent to them has now come. There is a difference between tribulation and wrath. Job suffered tribulation delt out by Satan, not wrath from God. This distinction is also part of Revelation. Tribulation does not equal wrath. Two distinct words. These books are sealed and how they will exactly play out we do not know other than looking at history and making some knowledgeable guesses. Even the people at the sixth seal who want to hide somehow mount a campaign of war toward the end of things. The seals will be bad and chaotic and really bad in some areas and deception at its height because times will be given over to the lawless one but as Jesus said when you see these things begin to happen then look up because your redemption draws nigh. As what correlates with Matth 24 the rescue is between the sixth and seventh seal. Even Peter said the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon to blood 'before' that great and glorious day of the Lord will come. Acts 2

It fits their gospel of a continuing sacrifice like the mass. Jesus said it is finished but the mass perpetuates the sacrifice and purgatory is some kind of atoning place also. It's really a different gospel and you are right, He no longer is on the cross.

I've heard it said, "When we take a truth and make it "thee" truth we turn it into a lie." For instance, holiness is a truth, if we focus on holiness making it our central truth we reach a point we no longer walk in truth but in our own abilities. Jesus is the truth and all truth is predicated upon Him. Jesus crucified, resurrected and coming again. Walk in the Spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Without Jesus, we can do nothing.

If you are writing a title head to an MSM article, sure.

I agree, and something I've always wondered about is that Michaels life force was placed in the womb of Mary and according to their doctrine a body without life force is dead, non-existent, then Michael died. Just like the man Jesus is dead forever dead then Michael is dead, so why did Michael have to die? Is there a special life force for the angels like God has a special life force? In their doctrine, life force is life force, It can be switched from a cow to a person back and forth without distinction. So what is at the right hand of the Father? A Michael, Jesus, Michael spirit creature? Or what? How did the blood of a non-existent man atone for anything? Something they are good at though is using prophecy to engage conversation. Most churches that still have new believers being added to their numbers are prophecy preaching, "Repent, the kingdom of God is at hand, Jesus is coming." type churches. Using escatology in preaching the gospel. Peter on the day of Pentecost for example. The JWs are schooled in it. Preaching the gospel of the kingdom and following those instructions but their gospel is false. Those that do the same with the true gospel bear fruit. New believers are growth, not people leaving church A for church B. It's good leaving a bad church for a good church but adding to the numbers is people being saved, the second birth, being born again. Praise God for believers coming together but we need to be a people that can make it rain, just like Elijah. He was a man like unto us and he could make it rain. But he went through a time of no rain completely dependant on Gods provision before being called into a major confrontation with leadership and false prophets before a small cloud formed that grew and grew. Something to think about anyway.

If we know their error well enough we can engage a conversation that leads to asking them questions about what they believe. I've done this with JWs. Our faith is a reasonable faith, it's rational. Theirs is not. Get them questioning their own faith just like Satan does with believers and then pray. We may be 12th in the line of 3 more houses that get them questioning enough to ask God for the truth. Jesus said be wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove. Edit to add, I've heard this technique referred to as using their sword to cut their head off. Like David did with Goliath. The Word of God between the eyes and their own book to finish. The five stones representing the law, the first five books of the Bible.

I've learned sincerity to be a major heart issue first step. People can sense sincerity. I was taught some years ago if you find yourself in a wrong attitude it's best to not engage. It's a part of the being ready to give an answer to the hope that is in us. Sometimes we can do more harm than good. Then it's situational, someone you meet for a short period of time in a number of scenarios to a person at work or in fellowship with, where a relationship is involved and then what is actually really difficult is a family member. The truth is going to divide but it can draw also. If we love and are sincere at least we may be heard. Jesus at the well with the Samaritan woman is good scripture to look at in dealing with someone in error. He told the truth, was sincere and loved her. And unless God draws someone there is no chance. Elijah was a man like unto us and he could make it rain. We need to be praying for and discerning the working of the Holy Spirit. To love someone enough to lay ourselves in what can be harm's way isn't always very easy.

No need to apologize. There are things to discover. Everything has been written for further understanding of the text. It's theological. The Bible is history and literature with stories but they are written for a reason. John states he wrote the things he did so that the readers would believe Jesus is the Christ. They aren't just random stories for a moral lesson or motivational pick me ups but specific events chosen by the Holy Spirit for our learning. We see a separation of light and dark in John and a separation of the light and dark in the old creation. God did a divine work with water on the third day in the old creation and in John, God does a divine work with water on the third day. These types of patterns are a style John uses in his gospel account. It's a Midrash on the old creation. The miracles are very salvation themed also, with Lazarus Jesus commanded remove the stone, evangelism, be witnesses unto me, then Jesus called him forth, only God can save, and then Jesus commanded them to remove the garments, make disciples of all nations. Take off those dead man clothes and put on the garment of salvation. Jude speaks of pulling our brother out of the fire hating the garment spotted with the flesh. Everything follows doctrine, nothing Jesus did was of no importance. Just because we don't see or understand doesn't mean more meaning doesn't exist. Types illuminate doctrine, we don't make doctrine from typology but the typology plays out or shows forth doctrine. The very actions and words of Jesus fulfilled scripture. He is the word manifest in the flesh.

Every push for peace ends in a war in this situation. That's why I think it will take a horrible event to bring about the atmosphere to have a type of peace, false peace, needed for the ultimate deception. It took the murder of millions of Jews to open the door for their return, empathy for a moment in time. Not that it would be something like that but an event that would shake a change in the world's perspective on the situation. Trump is trying things from a different approach but it seems the rhythms of terrorists are unpersuaded.

There is a Midrashic aspect of the miracle, Johns gospel begins using the narrative of the old creation as a setting for the new creation. "In the beginning God". "In the beginning was the Word". The third day God did a miracle with water in the old creation and on the third day God does a miracle with water in the new. God began with a wedding of man and woman and God began His public ministry with a wedding. The tradition of the Jews was to have weddings on Tuesday because it's the day of double blessing. God didn't say it was good on the second day of creation but said it was good twice on the third day. There are other nuances like the small light being John the Baptist and the larger light Jesus. Johns gospel is very Jewish and he said he wrote it evangelistic, he wrote the specific things so they would believe. Jn 20:31 From what I understand a Jew reading his gospel account in the first and second century would have understood the style and proof of Jesus being the Messiah literally fulfilling all things. It's in Johns gospel where we read Golgatha and the tomb are in garden areas. Jesus was betrayed in a garden. Everything began in a garden and the ultimate price was paid in a garden. I'm not sure where you're heading with this but look forward to reading it. There are always wonderful aspects to grow by.

And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your Kingdom." And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise." Luke 23:42,43 We may not fully understand a timeless eternity compared to our time ordered temporal life. But the above seems like a clear scripture to me. Our bodies do die and decay but it would seem we will be conscious of what Jesus calls Paradise until we put on our new bodies at the resurrection. I mentioned before about Paul being taken up and his uncertainty of how that was all coming about but he was conscious of what he saw. I also mentioned before that the sum of the word is true.