Zemke

Jesus claimed the thief being crucified next to him would be with Him in paradise that day. Your explanation sounds like it's from adjusted Watch Tower teaching without the quotes and terms from Chaz Russell, "The man Jesus is dead, forever dead." and "A body without life force is non-existent." We are made in the image and likeness of God. God created man, He created woman from man and man goes into a woman and procreates a third. The unity God had with humanity was corrupted and death entered in. Through the disobedience of one man sin entered and death came but through the obedience and shed blood of another, Jesus the righteous, we have eternal life. Sometimes understanding is very simplistic and glorious but we need to remember that it's the sum of the word that is true. Paul speaks of being absent from the body to be present with the Lord in 2Cor. 5 and when he was taken up to the third heaven he really couldn't say he understood what was happening but what he saw was beyond description. What Paul experienced in not knowing how all that was taking place is a good example or piece of what it will be like, a conscience presents, sort of like our conscience when we sleep. But without the confusions and nightmares. I believe it's why sleep terminology is used. So what you are saying is we don't exist when we die. Non-existent?

Deleted after deciding I didn't care for how I wrote things.

Hi, how you doing there, Zebulun was a people that despised their lives even unto death, and Naphtali also, on the high places of the field. Judges 5:18 This was the area where Jesus spent most of His ministry and chose His disciples from, His base of operation so to speak. Zebulun and Naphtali, Galilee of the Gentiles. From Nazareth Mt. Tabor is seen in the distance about a days walk where Barak and Debra mounted their campaign for the battle and Naphtali and Zebulun came when called but others stayed on the side. Now when He heard John had been taken into custody, He withdrew into Galilee; and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali. Matth. 4:12,13 It was His home turf. Despising our lives in this world is another way of saying "Love not the world or the things of this world" or "Friendship with the world is enmity toward God" or "For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake shall find it." These statements may have different contexts but have a theological connection. A constant theme in the teachings of Jesus and a reputation biblically of the people He chose to dwell among. And by the world, I don't mean earth. But this present age, as in, "This world is still in the hands of the wicked." 1John 5

Well, you can use part of what I said to make a point but it misses the spirit of what I had written overall. ebooks do come from books and are less expensive because I would think anyway are not a hard copy, but the platform of anything needs to be supported somehow. Like I said, using discernment in what you read is important and usually honest ministries will not over price and will even give freely when it's right and proper to do so. But no organization is without a few mistakes in judgement and we need to take into account the reality of the world we live in. Jesus freely taught and called His disciples not asking for money to do so. In that spirit, I can understand what you're saying. Churches that demand tithing need to check themselves. They may be over-invested and unbalanced. Some people will struggle to pay their own rent or mortgage during lean times. So writing a Christain book or doing teaching conferences to 'make' money is a wrong motive and God will hold them accountable. But others write and teach because God has called them to it and they have a passion for the truth and for the sheep. These books tend to be as affordable as possible to cover the costs and speaking engagements set on love offerings. And I've known speakers to leave the money behind because the people obviously had more need of it than them. Most so-called Christian books today aren't worth the paper they're written on. "Ten Keys to Prosperity" - garbage like that. But Jesus and His disciples took donations and it would seem also by the way the disciples cared about the costly oil that could have been sold, engaged in raising money, and for whom? The poor. The disciples needed to eat also. But Judas took from the cash on hand, he was a thief and a lier. This world is a mess and we need to ethically and morally do our best where God has called us.

Some writers use the proceeds to fund missions of the ministry they are partnered with and never touch a profit so to speak. But publishers need to run a business and paper isn't free or the rent in the stores who sell the books. Many people volunteer in editing and proofreading. Writing is very laborious especially to those who are called as teachers and pastors. Engaging with people is where their hearts are not cut off in a room. It's why books can take years to finish and many times not at all. I think holding back teaching CDs or printed material because a person is unable to afford them is wrong. Those of us who have the means to purchase should because solid ministries give freely. Those who purchase and give extra to a ministry help supply teaching materials, Bibles and books to those that are less fortunate. So some ministries have built on the concept of freely receive freely give but rent, food, travel, publishing, isn't free. If music, books, teaching CDs are part of a "Christian Industry" instead of a Christian Ministry then I agree in part with you, don't buy them. But usually good teaching, good books are a part of good ministry. I went last minute to a midweek study years ago and had forgotten my wallet in the rush. The speaker was profound so I went to the table their ministry had set up looking over the tapes and grabbing information when the man running the table asked what subject matter I was into at the moment and I said I was in such a hurry to get out of the house I forgot my wallet and he smiled and said "Freely receive, freely give. Take what you want." I still give to that ministry at times and it's been a few decades now. They have an aids orphanage in South Africa, plant churches, help the poor and supply schools for their children in a number of countries. It's not a huge ministry and mostly small communities but except for the orphanage leader, school teachers and a few missionaries, no one else receives any salaries, the administrators in any country or the head of the ministry itself do not receive pay. Travel costs are covered but most everyone makes tents so to speak. All book and tape proceeds go into these diverse ministries and the production of more materials. So ya in a perfect world everything is free, but this is not a perfect world. People need to work and people need money. Nothing wrong with money, just our attitude toward it. Fallen man is the problem. What's important is the content of the book and what ministry is the writer attached to? Discernment. At this point, I will not spend a dime on NT Wright material. I've listened to hours on the web and read a book given to me written by him but will not lend any help in that direction. I'll read his material and listen for discernment purposes only if it is free. The Lord's money needs to go to real ministry. Not some hierarchical gibber jab of intellectual hogwash ecumenism whitewashed sepulchre oxford accented politically motivated speech. But that's just me. We all have choices to make.

Yes, and praying for the lost, caring for our neighbour, being purposeful in our readiness for action, despising our lives in this world, repenting of sin, esteeming others as more important than ourselves has all been left in the tranches of uselessness because we have walked into fellowship on a Sunday. I get it, thank you.

I've wondered about England and France' role in WWI falling thru on the promises to the Arab tribes and the trouble both nations struggle with these days. I know these things are spreading but the middle eastern peoples think of the past as only yesterday, from what I've been taught anyway. Long in remembering things as just a short time ago that were not. Didn't Lawrence reject his knighthood because of how Britain lied to him and the Arabs?

Two weeks ago in Marrocco, the Pope kissed the feet of some Muslim leaders on video. So to a Muslim, a sign jihad is working? An emboldening of Muslims claims of superiority? Every now and then there are moments that waken the thoughts.

You might be explaining some of what Jesus was speaking of, "Blessed are the poor in spirit."

I thought from the question you asked it's what you had in mind. Prophecy is prediction and fulfilment but also pattern. Abraham went down and came out of Egypt and so did his descendants and Jesus went down and came out of Egypt and we in type have come out of the world, Egypt is that type of the world in that we were in bondage to the things of this world and are now set free. "Out of Egypt, I have called my son." In context, it's speaking of the Israelites but prophetically it's speaking of Messiah. It's why I said recapitulation. Something like that even though it was fulfilled in the Greeks, Antiochus and the Maccabees the same spiritual battles are going on in the heavens so like situations having diverse peoples but all leading up to the ultimate second coming. It's why every generation seems to see biblical events taking place. And why some will say these seals have been opened and this seal is the next. Preterists find events to say these things have all been fulfilled. The difference now is the Jews being back in the land, more Jews all the time believing in Jesus, the natural branches are being grafted back in. The time of the Gentiles is coming to a close. Sixty years ago we couldn't say that. Now there are Jewish congregations in every major city when back then there were not. And Jerusalem becoming more of a central focus as time goes by. "Jerusalem will become a cup of trembling." Patterns, Jesus had three and a half years and it would seem the son of perdition will get the same amount of time. 1,260 days, time times and half a time. Elijah stopped the rain for 3.5 years. Well, all these things have something to do with understanding these things. But we always look for some tripwire of timing understanding rather than an intensity of what will be from what has already been. Birth pangs, they get more intense as the delivery approaches but there is relative calm in between. We know the baby is coming but it's the intensity that really says, "Oh ya, this is it." And there is no delay once the birthing starts. Earth tremors work the same way. "Is this the big one?" No, but when the tremors get closer and more intense everyone brasses themselves.

My post above is somewhat of a recapitulation of the ram and goat to set up eventually a north-south conflict as what became of the aftermath of Alexander with Antiochus. Out of the rubble of an east-west conflict could arise a clearer picture of globalism and the alinement of nations for the eventual rise of the antichrist. All this could happen rather quickly because we can see the tensions all around of the developing nations in the south frustrated and moving into the developed nations in the north in both hemispheres. One nasty quick onslaught of serious hardware could tip the scales for global peace. Setting the stage more clearly than how we guess at things now but won't so much then. However, deception will be even heavier so no matter how clear things may be for us don't expect many to pay attention. The aspect of peace will override any sense of paying attention to us nuts with our negative prophecy stuff. Jeremiah is a good example of that. People will listen to the false prophets proclaiming peace. It could also subdue Islam in the radical sense and pave the way for a peace deal that would seem to have everyone's agreement. It took a horrid event to open up the middle east for the Jews to return and it just may take another horrid event for the Muslims to back down. Trump's peace plan will most likely lead to war just like all the other peace plans have. Once again it's just an educated guess and speculation but I happen to still hold to the reconfiguration of the Roman empire idea, the ten toes of the statue from the dream. The mixture of multiculturalism will never adhere eventually becoming what Jesus predicted in Matth, 24. ethnos against ethnos translated nation against nation. Iron and clay can't adhere to one another. First internal conflicts then kingdom against kingdom. We can see the seeds of these things everywhere.

In the Song of Deborah in Judges, it speaks of Zebulun as a people that despised their lives even unto death and Naphtali also...............they took no plunder in silver. Judges 5:18,19 The verses you've written above have a spiritual connection to a reality in our discipleship. Jesus after He came out of the wilderness being tempted he heard John had been arrested and Jesus returned to Nazareth, from there went into the land of Zebulun and Naphtali Galilee of the Gentiles. Matth. 4. Most of His ministry took place in the countryside and he chose His disciples from this region. Jesus goes on to teach about loving not your life in this world. If you seek to preserve your life you will lose it and if you lose your life for his namesake you will gain it. Love not the world nor the things of this world. The verses you quoted are speaking more about experiencing the futility and wretchedness of this place and our righteousness is as filthy rags. Naphtali and Zebulun came to the battle when called while the other tribes hesitated or stayed aloof. Jesus chose His disciples from a people who historically had their priorities straight. When he said follow me, they left what they were doing, didn't they. At first, I wasn't so sure those were good proof text verses to understand the situation in Revelation but there may be a principle involved. I too have always read into that verse they were seeking to kill themselves but God prevented it. Interesting, something to think further on. I think I may see what you're getting at.

Seeker sensitivity is a result of the church not standing on the scriptures and the love of God. We can have truth and not love but we cannot love without truth. The world will hate those who believe. The wonderful comfort we have enjoyed in the west because of the influence of scripture and Greek reasonability in critical thinking has disappeared in many quarters especially education. Things will get tougher over time for believers in the west and at some point overnight becoming very difficult. Much of the church is suffering in the world. The west is putting up a cultural fight but we will see.

It would seem events need to take place that would create a north-south conflict of a good magnitude. Europe at this time doesn't seem emboldened enough for such a thing. That could change quickly, just as an example and no dogmatic meaning intended, if Iran would do something foolish or even a mistake, accident, like a nuclear event while posturing war against Israel and the U.S. came crashing down big time terminating the Iranian threat. A recapitulation of sorts of the Ram and the Goat. This could set the stage for a reconfiguration of world powers and a rushing into globalism full press. All the alignment we see in Daniel and Revelation could happen very quickly in literally biblical proportions. Western power could majorly shift to Europe and the whole stage would be set for Nimrod the ultimate. Or better known as the son of perdition. This quick horrid war would set all nations on a course of "enough is enough". People will gladly do whatever for peace and someone who seems to love the poor, has favour with many peoples, brilliant at negotiating, reaches across the aisle, embraces religion, especially Judaism and Christianity while subduing and appeasing Islam. Has endless spending ability and gains control of the major armaments and regions of power ushering in a sense of peace like no other and the whole list of characteristics about the man of lawlessness. But deception will be at it's highest level of levels and the spiritual battles will be like no other. And America will have its own north-south conflict as we can see it forming now. We are in and moving toward interesting times. It's speculation of course and as long as it has a biblical sense to it I find it no harm and interesting but ultimately no matter what may happen, faithfulness is the premium commodity. Not silver or gold or canned goods. The love of Jesus, He is faithful and whoever calls on His name shall be saved.

So, are you saying that if a believer doesn't see this preponderance of evidence you say exists but has seen the coming of Jesus differently, they have darkness in them, great darkness? The litmus test for salvation being a belief in pre-trib?

First I think it's admirable to defend your beliefs against choir loft, he seems sincere enough but a little over the top with the messianic Jewdism. I believe the western church can use all the Hebraic understanding of the scriptures we can get but he has a strange way of not having the patience to teach it. But that's just me hollering from the back row. However, to say not believing in a pre-trib rapture will leave one left behind is a stretch and borders on Jesus plus something. Like in, "Oh ya, believe in Jesus, sure, but you 'also' need to be taught dispensationalism and believe pretribulationism. It's statements like that that a person such as choir loft laughs aloud. I remember the day when the phrase, "We'll show you on the way up" was the standard for pre-trib. We have in Micah ch7 a clear statement that God will "bring me out to the light and I will behold His righteousness, and my enemy shall see. Then she shall be trampled down like mire in the streets." It's an interesting section of scripture. The prophet is in dire straights leading up to this proclamation. The phrase, "Do not rejoice over me oh my enemy, for if I should fall I will arise." (resurrection) Also, Daniel was clear there will be a rescue and Peter in Acts states that the sun will turn to darkness and the moon to blood 'before' that great and glorious day comes. To be dogmatic and condemn those who have been saved that have always seen the coming of the Lord as simply taught, as they can understand it clearly written, is something you need to check. Not only is pre-trib not clear to many Bible-believing God-fearing faithful brothers and sisters a statement like that is party spirit. It's divisive. We can discuss these things but this is not a divisive issue and with an attack on the rescue of God from all quarters we who know there is a rescue need to at least have unity in that. The word yatsa, strongs 3318. It's a Hebrew word meaning brought out, pulled out, taken at any time. It's the word used for Lot, Rahab and Moses bringing the camp out to meet the LORD in Exodus 19 all the while a loud trumpet sound grew louder and louder. They had to wash their garments, an emphatic command. God said He would raise up a prophet like unto Moses. We see things differently concerning the coming of the LORD but the breaking of His body and the shedding of His blood is where we find unity, a common salvation. Really check yourself about declaring what you have.

My first reaction would be it isn't "the treaty." Realize just as the Son of God fulfilled all first coming prophecy completely so too must the son of perdition fulfil everything spoken of him. This guy is going to be really something. All these pushes for a treaty end up in war and most likely so will this one. For a solid deal to be made there most likely will be a major event, catastrophic, that would create the atmosphere for a deal and shift much of the western powers into Europe. The catastrophe will be used to further lock in the globalist agenda. Things pertaining to Daniel and Revelation will then become even more clear. The more we approach an object, the clearer it becomes.

There are moments in our discipleship when we will be "in the wilderness" so to speak. We fill our lives or think we need to have these full social calendars and it's great on one hand but there will be times the Lord will set us alone, not lonely, don't dwell on that, for His reasons and purposes. We may not understand until years later how this time we seem to be on an Island benefits anything but a shepherd doesn't always hang with his sheep on fertile ground but must guide them from time to time through dry ground. Just as a starter you can think about Moses being raised in most likely the best education the world could offer along with the best life and then the wilderness. For forty years a husband, father, shepherd and then forty more years leading a million people through that same wilderness. David and his men were trained in the wilderness, The apostle Paul the same thing. Wilderness. It's just a season and best spent gaining patience and growing in Him. One way or another we will all have a wilderness experience. Short, brief, elongated we don't know but it is a good time to choose that good thing that Mary, the sister of Martha, chose. Sit at Jesus' feet. It will be over soon enough, God has made us for fellowship and will not leave you hanging on an island.

So does getting involved with messianic Judaism in Florida bring out the crushing debate tactic monster in us all? Are there Thursday night practice sessions and slam the Gentile motivational courses? Can I holler from the back row? Heights make me angrier and it's tempting to throw things from up in the loft. that's me learning to holler from the back row.....hey this is fun.............. care to appologize for the silver trumpetrs or are you just going to ignore that bit of ignorance on your part?

And what could happen is a ram and goat situation from Iran(Persia) doing something stupid with the west(America) charging quickly to destroy the Ram and the aftermath bringing a serious restructuring of western powers building its centre in Europe and a man of peace rising to the forefront and most of your current Islamic dogma down the tubes. I mean while you speculate may I join the fun. This would create the north-south confliction associated with Daniel 11. All the while as the Jews enjoy a time of peace while building and even more Jews returning to the land and eventually the abomination.

Amen. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,.......2Peter 3:14

Yes, the Jews blow Shofars at prescribed times and when instructed to do so like at the battle of Jericho. But they also had silver trumpets or metal trumpets. This was blown at any time for leaving camp or for a meeting. A specific call for the elders of the tribes, one trumpet or a call from two trumpets for the whole camp to meet. The shofar was always designated for a set time but the silver trumpet could be blown at any time. It would also seem they were used for a call to battle. The LORD spoke further to Moses, saying, "Make yourself two trumpets of silver, of hammered work you shall make them; and you shall use them for summoning the congregation and for having the camps set out. Numbers 10: 1,2 Verses 1 thru 10 describe the use of these trumpets.

Everything that can happen will happen. Imagine all the prophetic history of types and plain-spoken prophecy and the typologies in historical events all happening in a short window. It's one of the reasons it will be a time like no other and never will be again. If we are faithful and know the scripture we will recognize what's happening and will understand. We can know of many things like radical homosexuality will get violent but the heaviness of what Lot went through will only be known by those who will be surrounded by them. There is knowing and then there is knowing. What will happen in the future has happened and is happening. It will just increase to a level beyond any rationality. Which in some quarters already is irrational. We see these things building. The final conflict, like in Daniel, will be a north-south conflict. Look at the world. The developing nations in the southern hemisphere will conflict with the developed nations of the north. Sixty years ago there were only dozens of Jewish believers in Israel, well maybe a hundred, but now tens of thousands. Sixty years ago in the west in any major city, there would be a Jewish family or one or two believing Jews in a congregation and now there are multiple Jewish congregations with a few Gentiles. The age of the Gentiles is coming to a close. More natural branches are being grafted back in. Homosexuality, abortion, pagan religions all giving rise to the hatred and washing down of Judeo-Christian values. It's very possible a major conflict could occur that would set up a time of peace. This could give rise to a structuring of the world that would amaze us biblically. A time of peace unprecedented, are we not told he, the son of perdition, would conquer with peace. We know what the Bible says but we don't know until we know experientially how these things will look. We have all the world empires all the types in scripture our own experiences calamities and horror as we speak happening in the world. It will be like that only far worse. But a time of peace will be a major indicator that sets up a deception we have yet to face. People will be saying peace peace peace and then sudden destruction. It's why I mentioned faithfulness above all else. We need to take into account that everything that has happened will happen, just like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Jesus' own words. There will be an escalation and order of events but what we are given is an outline as we approach that day. But it will just be crazy. Commerce will still be going on and some portions of the world won't be as bad as others and people will listen to whatever the government tells them for law and order, just like we have seen liberty encroached upon after 9/11. People won't care about liberty or freedom just stability. Anyway, there is so much that can be said and having a brother in Christ that we can personally in the flesh speak with regularly about these things helps with faithfulness and further understanding and the peace that passes all human understanding. Rahab is a great picture of faithfulness in the face of a coming calamity of calamities. Her city was burned and no survivors other than who she was able to convince to come into her house.

I don't think I've ever been clear on what I mean by timing. It seems obvious the events spoken of by Jesus in Matth. 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 have a connection to the seals. So when it comes to when I see biblically the resurrection/rescue as spoken of by Daniel happening it's between the sixth and seventh seal. But it's the timing within the occurring of all those events and others within Revelation that I find more secondary to the reality of those events and how we can see current events leading up to it all. I've heard it explained in the manner of an invasion. The Lord is coming and we are like the commandos dropped behind enemy lines before the major onslaught. We have work to do but there will come a time when no man can work. "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work." He comes like a thief in the night. The world will become progressively darker spiritually even though at times seeming to get better, birth pangs, earth tremors. Periods of time in between that are calm. Faithfulness to our first love is vastly important to even grasp the events as they occur. So yes it's important to know the scriptures but figuring out the timing of events like for instance what's up next, will not be so clear or easy without faithfulness. We don't know the day or hour but we know the season, night. There will come a time when we will know He is coming, just as the virgins did. A cry came out at midnight, they were not sure how much longer but they knew He was coming. "When you see these things begin to happen then look up, you're redemption draws nigh." Luke 21. There's so much that connects and it's always best to pray and read. Message boards when it comes to these things many times makes more of a mess and argument and when I see the arguments they are always timing issues, this happens when that happens and when it happens those things will happen and while biblical understanding of these events will increase as the day approaches and being in the scriptures is important, the daily work knowing he is coming should be a bitterness in our bellies. I guess what I'm trying to say is the application in our walks needs to be more than figuring everything out. Being faithful will lead to understanding. That day of understanding will come as we remain faithful. Jesus warned of deception more than anything else. Discernment is very important. The disciples didn't know the true character of Judas until it was revealed to them. We are told the son of perdition will be revealed. We may at that time have an idea but chances are most of us will be surprised. If we can't see through some of the obvious deceivers today and many can't then look out. Trust only the Lord. The scriptures are always important and the illumination of the Holy Spirit vital. Oil in the lamps. It's getting darker and about these things, the Bible has much to say. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before that great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. Peter in Acts 2 We will know He is coming if we are alive at that time, the day or hour no, but hold on the rescue is coming. Faithfulness, not timing.

The one that fits the sum of the word. "The sum of thy word is truth." Daniel is told to seal these things up until the time of the end and as we approach that day our understanding will increase. Apocolypsis is revealing hence Revelation, the closer to an object the clearer it becomes. I've heard pre-wrath referred to as intra-seal by those who don't hold to some of the beliefs of pre-wrath but the placement scripturally of the time of darkness, the night, correlating with the resurrection/rescue of believers being between the sixth and seventh seal is agreed upon. The more a believer follows the scriptural patterns and references, types and shadows this view does seem to fall more comfortably with the whole of the word. I was raised dispensational and it took prayer and some effort to get beyond approaching the text with a preconceived notion of what the scriptures say prophetically. But the scriptures do show us the very plain understanding of His coming. It's just to simple for some of us to believe and is disturbing to those of us who for our whole lives have read things differently. I know, I went thru it. But the timing isn't as important as understanding the seasons and being about the Fathers business. I notice so much of prophecy discussions are consumed by timing and timing placement when things like Lot calling the radical homosexuals brothers and him trying to shut the door on his own not working and the faithfulness of Rahab up until that day hanging a scarlet cord out her window. Personally, I have found more understanding in scripture about the time of the end concerning believers after seeing the pre-wrath perspective, or inta-seal, whichever is preferred.