simplejeff

TORAH is good when it is used properly, as YHWH SPOKE TORAH. When TORAH is mis-represented, mis-used, ignored, abandoned, or dis-honored, there is sin.

Even the churches do not limit entrance to the saved/ righteous. (except for a few) However, What happens to any country, wherever someone lives, if they open their gates to let in cancer cells ? Instead of first curing the cancer ? And those who don't want the cure, cannot enter in. When it happens to a person's body, they get sick, and may die. (often slowly, over a decade or several decades), When it happens to a country, it has disorder, disruption, chaos, and continuing illness until it dies, or perhaps (if ever) recovers, though after great difficulties and troubles....

YHWH says HIS WORD (SCRIPTURE) is all YHWH BREATHED (INSPIRED) and given for our benefit TODAY. It is not changed by society , politic, medicio, scholars, priests, pastors , students, professors, or anyone else. (nor by culture). Some places people go do teach, preach and practice things very contrary to HIS WORD. The GOOD SHEPHERD Y'SHUA (JESUS) says MY sheep KNOW MY VOICe and follow ME, and they will not follow another .....

1 Timothy 6:17-19 NIV Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Yes, just like they called JESUS and HIS disciples insane, idiots, drunkards, etc etc etc As written in GALATIANS, all those things of the world/ (society) IS pernicious - IS under the sway(control) of the prince of the power of the air --- i.e. bad for everyone, like polluted air. And then confirmed in REVELATION, when "the whole world refuses to stop serving demons" ... Not "subliminals" according to SCRIPTURE and YHWH, but "spirituals" ...... things unseen, but revealed in YHWH'S WORD and by YHWH to HIS children.

In ROMANS it is written that gentiles who obey TORAH from their conscience are justified, being DOers of the WORD even though they don't "have TORAH", while those who "have TORAH" but disregard it , being "HEARERS ONLY" and not "DOERS" , are not justified. YHWH is absolutely just and righteous judge - those "outside ecclesia" are judged by HIM, not by ecclesia, and YHWH always and perfectly judges righteously.

YHWH told HIS people that was the reason for the TORAH - The TORAH separated HIS people from ALL the other nations, the gentile heathen who it is written in the NEW TESTAMENT were without YHWH and without hope in the world. Still, it was nations without hope - as there were individuals, perhaps thousands, perhaps millions, who turned to YHWH out of the gentile heathen nation they were in, and came to YHWH (first in their heart?), then pursued YHWH CREATOR by seeking out HIS people and eagerly learning TORAH LIFE from them, by faith seeking to do what YHWH says to do through the instructions HE gave HIS PEOPLE.

Does not being able to enter heaven constitute a curse ? (i.e. resurrected to shame and judgment instead of to eternal life) See the list in Revelation of who is not able to enter heaven. (many are related to breaking (continually, without repentance) YHWH'S commandments, if not direct commandments). Everyone is consigned under sin, so that everyone may be saved by grace - so everyone who is not saved (most of the world) remains dead in their sin and trespasses - is that a curse ? (It doesn't matter if they broke one of the ten, or all of them , or not - everyone is consigned under sin until/ before they are purchased by the blood of the MESSIAH Y'SHUA) Who can be set free from any curse ? Perhaps anyone|everyone who turns to JESUS. (as written in the NEW TESTAMENT - everyone who came to JESUS was healed, and JESUS said no one who comes to HIM will HE turn away).

Throughout history, today even, Christians are being mocked - on forums, in real life, in cities and countries all around the world, often with anger and contempt; likewise with torture, humiliation, imprisonment, beatings and execution (and treatment not appropriate to talk about). To start with , here's some recent excerpts about the first century: "... ... A person who became a follower (disciple) of Jesus experienced a radical change in values, attitudes and actions - and the world mocked such people by calling them "Christians." ... The disciples were first called "Christians" at Antioch..... .... " ".... The designation of the early followers of Christ as Christians was initiated by the non-Christian population of Antioch. ... Christian population of Antioch (Acts 11: 26), and originally it was probably a term of mocking or derision – “little Christ”..... " "....And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. ... used to ridicule and mock the followers of the criminal black lowlife Yeshua of Nazarene. ... ... " "...The term 'Christian' was used to describe a follwer of Christ in terms of the world, from the world’s point of view. The pagans at Antioch called the apostles "Christians" first (Acts 11:26; 26:28) and used it derogatorily because the apostles didn’t follow the commercial world of the pagans....." "....The name "Christian" was first given to the followers of Jesus in Antioch. Antioch was notorious for its ability to produce nicknames. They had one even for the emperor whom they once called "the Goat." Thus the name "Christian" was given to the followers of Jesus neither by themselves nor by the Jews, but by the Greek speaking pagans in Antioch. It was a nickname, a by- word, given in derision and contempt. .... "

Some have read the book of REVELATION (last book in the BIBLE). What looks one way on earth, today, is not at all what it looks like. In heaven, on judgment day, the truth is spoken, righteous judgment.

Yes, Amein. All these and more, Y'SHUA said to keep, and to not neglect the others (ones not listed) also. TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS, and NEW TESTAMENT all testify to all of these, to DO ....

Yes, like when the disciples went about, they "healed the sick" AND "cast out demons" (simply) - it is easy for disciples to do (disciples of JESUS, not of something else)

People make mistakes every day. YHWH (GOD) never makes a mistake. People don't know very much. YHWH (GOD) knows everything there is to know - way beyond what all people together can even begin to imagine. So, as Y'SHUA MESSIAH SAVIOR lived, and told HIS disciples to live, listen to the FATHER all the time, staying in prayer, and DO what HE says to do. (instead of what men say, or even one's own heart or mind). i.e. in other words , also, do not judge by what can be seen and heard physically, but judge rightouesly - whatever the FATHER determines, DO as HE says.

What did JESUS say ? That GOD is the GOD of the dead ? (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) No. YHWH is ELOHIM of the living ! (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) But neither the soul-sleepers, nor the anti-soul-sleepers, seems to understand or consider concerning this that YHWH does not live confined by time, nor is HIS KINGDOM restricted by time nor in time. When a person dies, as SCRIPTURE says, they can do nothing. (this cannot be broken and is truth). Yet time means nothing to those who have slept. When anyone is resurrected, to them it is as if in the blink of an eye. No surprise there. Nothing contrary to any part of YHWH'S WORD.

Well, think about this. Look at the varied answers people have given for centuries. Almost always they ignore one SCRIPTURE to promote what it is they choose to believe. Few ever accept all of SCRIPTURE, and the TRUTH is that all of SCRIPTURE is truth - unchanging, unchangeable, when understood as God grants understanding. This is quite obvious almost everywhere, when men's ideas are accept (even for centuries), supported by some SCRIPTURE, but does violence to other SCRIPTURE. i.e. Let GOD'S WORD ALL BE TRUE, though every man a liar. This was one of the first things taught me that enabled me (and others anywhere, all along) to first of all trust GOD, completely, and not to trust men, if they said ANYTHING contrary to SCRIPTURE. There were posted (not in this thread, but on this forum) over 20 posts in the last few hours that deny some SCRIPTURE in order to support some idea or doctrine of men. A couple years ago it overwhelmed me, drained me, as it is never-ending; then one or more moderators on this site or another site told me "don't try to answer all of them; just a few" ; and that is what I started doing. It has been a big relief too. The OP question: or more generally , "When is anyone saved?" Jesus answered this several times, in SCRIPTURE. (note that the english/ western world thinking/ doesn't carry over the same meaning as the original languages - i.e. differs from GOD'S BREATHED WORD/meaning). For instance, when God SAVED someone's crop, does not contradict any SCRIPTURE. But to say their crop was SAVED every year does contradict some SCRIPTURE. Or again, God saved the people of Nineveh , right ? But to say they were all saved is not right - God later destroyed them. i.e. Very often english/ western thinking does not take into consideration the time or the timing involved, nor the differences in God's meaning when a person or something else was, is , or will be SAVED.

A lot of people say this, and many say that... (i.e. so many different views). I believe all of YHWH'S WORD is TRUTH, and few people ever accept that. (compared to the wide road populated with those who don't).

"They" - meaning the ecclesia immersed in Y'SHUA'S NAME, living the way HE says to live, did not stop. Today it is still rare, as it was back then and all thru history. R A R E (not common) . F E W - who find the narrow road to life. "They" are blessings to all around them, when you can find them (us)/ but the large religious and the political groups everywhere oppose us(them). They(we) require honesty and truth in all things all day, every day, as we live according to JESUS WORD. Almost no one else wants this, even just this aspect.

Basically yes. That would effect more good results than what any large group or church is doing now. Not as if by rule or by rote, nor as if under obligation to rules, but subject always, in everything to the MASTER JESUS. See in SCRIPTURE how JESUS taught the apostles and disciples to live, simply and with motives being purified to serve GOD. Every one of the WORDS that proceed from YHWH , HE says that is what we are to live by. "Every one of the WORDS" is truly a life long experience, learning and DOing HIS WORD (be not hearers only, but DOers.....)... HIS WORD is more important and more valuable than gold, yes, even more than much fine gold..... So as we are permitted and enabled and willing, let us learn HIS WORD DAILY, relying and trusting our FATHER in heaven to accomplish everything concerning SALVATION as HE says.... for us and for as many as will come to HIM.

Thanks Marilyn, In school when we used the expression, too long ago (haha), we meant continuing to look for a solution of a real problem - I don't remember ever using it to mean trying to fit a large square peg into a tiny keyhole opening. (to stretch, maybe, an analogy or anomaly ? ) Jeff.

Matthew 6Contemporary English Version (CEV) Giving 6 When you do good deeds, don’t try to show off. If you do, you won’t get a reward from your Father in heaven. 2 When you give to the poor, don’t blow a loud horn. That’s what show-offs do in the meeting places and on the street corners, because they are always looking for praise. I can assure you that they already have their reward. . . 3 When you give to the poor, don’t let anyone know about it.[a] 4 Then your gift will be given in secret. Your Father knows what is done in secret, and he will reward you.

There are a lot of things that cannot be said openly, in forums, in the news, on the internet, for several reasons. However, what I referred to is very well known SCRIPTURE. Like(similarly) the SERMON on the MOUNT by JESUS. Almost no one , maybe no one, has ever explained the sermon on the mount as powerfully and as clearly as simply reading what JESUS says. Likewise the books of Corinthians - I've seen a lot of so-called studies and sermons about them, but hardly any of them are right on and as simple and powerful as YHWH'S WORD is directly. So few people have read the Epistles in the NEW TESTAMENT , it seems a major problem because they have no idea how the ecclesia (those who are born again, immersed in Y'SHUA) are supposed to live - and in fact most people say things directly opposed to and contrary to YHWH'S WORD. Also, as seen frequently online, whenever the object is just stated with minimal context, it is deflected, distracted from, or flat out denied. (like another very well known warning from JESUS not to just state the bare truth before the crowds(i.e. world wide internet audience) , lest the whole meaning is lost and dishonored and demeaned). Finally? , the apostles told their listeners to not accept anything they said, if it differed from TORAH and/or SCRIPTURE (YHWH'S WORD).... The only way to test everything is by reading SCRIPTURE.....

They still do what they did in Corinth, in many places, so, likewise, many are sick, and many (physically) die.... Spiritually ? < shrugs > not for here (this site).

Clarify just what the drawing board is please, if it is for real .... thx. Shalom Marilyn !

I don't remember any time, any verse, where YHWH, Y'SHUA, the PROPHETS, APOSTLES or disciples ever said (or were told) to "try" not to sin. Simply "go and sin no more", "you must be holy because I AM HOLY", "you must be perfect because your FATHER IN HEAVEN is perfect", "do not lie to one another any more (ever)", and they walked and lived "IN UNION WITH Y'SHUA" , and YHWH states in HIS WORD the ecclesia were set apart and faithful and righteous ...... What YHWH says, let's agree to. Now, go and drive around AND DO NOT RUN A RED LIGHT (no, not ever! ) . (do not commit fornication nor adultery either, no, not ever ! ) See how easy it is to keep the commandments, (JESUS said they are not burdensome, and that is the TRUTH).

In Corinth there were sin(s) that resulted in physical sickness for many, and death for some or many. In assemblies where the poor were taken care of as directed in TORAH and in NEW TESTAMENT, they (apparently) did not suffer sickness and death from those particular sins(s). Related to recognizing the body of CHRIST, ecclesia being all joint members of one (invisible? yet visible) body, and caring properly for one another as Y'SHUA says.