Mike 2

I agree. I'm not talking to you guys specifically but I think you are touching on what seems to be a wide ranging sentiment that I see a lot. It usually shows up in stuff starting with..."I should be able to say Merry Christmas"... and ends with ..."go back to your own country". Are we so pure and holy that we get to stand above and say others are following false gods? Where does this country stand? Most people have no idea of the significance of what Jesus has done other than give us a reason to trade gifts on Christmas and chocolate on Easter. Western society is filled with false gods, filled. Calling western society "Christian" is really only a way of saying "we are not.... (put whatever you don't like here)" Maybe the first part of Matthew 7 is worth a quick read. Pandoras box is already open, in our own house.....we are foolish to think we can stem the tide with a bunch of laws that divide and segregate..BUT.... ...as followers of Jesus we do have a chance to change the lives of every single person that comes into each of our worlds by showing them a better , loving, gracious and compassionate way. Hopefully they then come to know the true God who reveals himself in the bible. Any other way and we as Christians are just clanging bells moving a lot of self righteous air, foolishly playing right into the hands of the devil. It's like being upset when a JW comes to the door..... Why? God brought them there for me to come into a caring/ grace filled relationship and teach the truth. They are right there without the whole force of their overseers behind them....... ......why in the world would I want to slam the door in the face of someone God just brought to me?

By the way....this is an inspiring video. I find it rather timely because I have just finished reading "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus"(Nabeel Qureshi) about a devote Muslim, that through a close Christian friend finds Jesus. This video fits perfectly into the context of the book and has a deeper understanding of what that Muslim went through in light of it. It was a good, easy read that really enlightens the reader about how and why Muslims believe what they do. The writer is very good at explaining how the truth/ lies about Islam were brought to his attention. A must read for anyone concerned about how it is possible that anyone could believe what Muslims do. When we realize that we cannot help anyone until we have some understanding of why they do what they do we realize we have to educate ourselves about the things we oppose. A fireman has to learn what he is battling ...he cannot put out a chemical fire with water. I in my ignorance and good intentions would shoot the ol' water on there and just make it worse.

Hmmm....... so Muslims that don't blow up things are talking about the Christian God. I understand your way of thinking.

Interesting...Do they use the term "God" or something else?

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Omegaman is saying that Arabs both Christian and Muslim use the same term Allah to describe their respective God so we therefore should be conscientious when we are talking about Allah and be sure that we make it clear which "God" we are talking about.

Jer_29:13 You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart. There is no doubt that talking to him is where you start. I have learned over the years to look for his response in different ways, not just the way I expect . Sometimes it's through someone that bounces in to my life, sometimes it's from a conversation I hear, sometimes what I read. Sometimes in the middle of the night I realize it's the Lord working in my head. Starting to look for Him like you are now is the first step in the walk. Keep walking and you will hear him. All his blessings Mike2

Well humrts it seems to me you know that you are a sinner, but based on what? Your question about grieving the Holy Spirit pertains to the God of the Bible. But hey, why bother to change if you don't believe in God? In that case...who are you sinning against? Or do you believe in God? To come into the kingdom of God we have to know we are sinners and repent of that sin. There are at least 2 reasons I would not like to sin 1) it puts a barrier between me and God 2) it puts a barrier between me and others Either way, whether you feel guilty about it or not it messes up relationships. Repenting doesn't mean I am going to instantly change what I do. It does mean that I am going to change the way I think about what I do, the change for the better then comes as a result of that change. You know and believe more than what you realize. That you are concerned about not going to heaven because you may be grieving the Holy Spirit makes me ask the question ..why are you worried about that stopping you from going to heaven when you have a guaranteed free ticket to heaven being handed to you by Jesus? You know you are a sinner, you know Jesus paid for those sins. Nothing says you have to feel a certain way...you just gotta admit it and want to change from those ways. Forgiveness has already been given....once .....for all. 1Pe_3:18 For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit, all you have to do is accept it. Sooooo, why not?

Hey JoeCooper, I can remember when I was a kid staring up at the stars with my dad one night and asking him where space began and ended. He said "a man could go nuts trying to figure that out". I've come to accept that there just can't be a beginning or an end because wherever the end is, what comes after that? When you look at me you see my body, you don't see the unseen me inside and I don't see the unseen you, the part of you that feels love, sadness, joy. Those feelings are real, not make believe, they're not physical they're in your spirit, and your spirit is very real. The bible tells us God is spirit as well. I can accept that because I know I am a spirit and I am more than a body. Where did God come from?.... I can remember when I was a kid staring up at the stars with my dad one night ......... Your coming here is a sign that Gods' Spirit is drawing you. Nobody knows your thoughts but you, and God. Talk to him in your thoughts, no one will know, just Him, maybe reflect on what James wrote Jas_1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him. Now James was writing to Christians seeking wisdom in speaking about their faith however God reaches farther than just that and will respond to anyone that is truly looking to know him. All the best Mike2

Wow, i really like that Fresno

Missmuffet for what it's worth; In regards to the OP quote I lean towards the way Leonardo is looking at it. These are primarily physical descriptions pointing to spiritual truths. They are written this way because we humans are living in a physical world and that's is how we primarily relate. We have to look at Revelation from a spiritual aspect and I wonder if that is what is meant by Rev 1:3 How blessed is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and obey what is written in it, for the time is near! ---------- Using that line of thinking; We know God is the creator of ALL things. If Heaven is a physical place then God had to have created it. If that is true, then where did He live before that? I believe that heaven is not a physical place where God lives but that wherever God is there Heaven is. When He is in me and I am in Him, I am in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus often said "the Kingdom of God is near you" or some version of that. What was he talking about? It seems that there will be some physical reality that we will spend eternity in, but if that is physical then it is created. Revelation tells us that God will be with us; Rev 21:3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, "See, the tent of God is among humans! He will make his home with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God. Well we know that God has not always lived in a created tent so that must have a different meaning, a spiritual meaning. I don't look at heaven as "coming down" from some physical place but coming down from a place of status. Love to read others take on this.

So how do we meet that challenge without appearing to disturb the peace? Do we seek to change a culture? That cannot be done by any sort of a law, even if it is forced, it will only "appear" to take effect. Or do we seek change in individuals and then as that change is seen others that see the benefits of the change, jump on board and then the culture is changed "organically"? I think there is a backlash against all the forced Christian teaching in our North American culture resulting in angry people that are only "Christian" by default , no different than a lot of Muslims.... both of whom can go to extremes enforcing man made religious rules. Don't fool yourself....Satan can creep into Christianity just as easy as any other religion. I think if we can identify the ways he does that we can begin to learn how to show others the real truth of Jesus.

Lady Kay I think from the sounds of it the Lord is stretching you. When that happens it's usually uncomfortable...but you grow if you respond by working at it, which it appears you're doing. I think you have to look at what it is that is bothering you and challenge yourself as to how you are a part of it and whether your responses are contributing to that. I think The_Patriot and BacKaran make a lot of sense. Use this as a forum to learn. I would rather get into it here with a believer that can be lacking in grace when it comes to challenging my thoughts than have the same situation with someone that is a none believer. The stakes are a lot higher with the non believer and it's important to learn when to shut up (and as you can see from my post I have a problem). We don't need to win the battle and we are definitely not going to win the war....our Lord is going to do that. Something else that occurs to me is that even though I may not be able to get you to accept my point of view I at least have an opportunity to share it....in writing, and it may very well be that someone comes along months from now, reads that little bit of insight I shared and it is a small piece of the puzzle they are looking for.....it was never intended for me to win a debate....just put it out there. It may be that what I say draws the answer or question that person is looking for out of the person I am debating with....we just never know. I know I've learned a lot reading the posts in here without getting involved. Thing is...and I say this to everyone reading this, when we start treating each other with disrespect, what are we saying about the love our Lord has asked us to share? How are we acting as his ambassadors to those looking at what a life as a Christian is like? Let's leave that behavior to those outside the church and make an effort not to retaliate. Our Lord gets tarred with the same brush as us when we behave badly in front of non believers. All that to say...keep at it, fine tune your responses and look to learn! One more thought; I have written in the front of my bible, on the very first page "You have to be willing to be wrong" How else will I learn?

I'm thinking about this and it occurs to me that there is a choice here. We see the history of Samuel as a prophet of God, he speaks on behalf of God. We read that God says anyone consulting with a medium will be defiled and be eliminated from contact with his people. The choice is 1) do I believe that this is God working through the medium or; 2) what is happening through the medium is contradicting what God has said and therefore either God is not practicing what He preaches or this is not God at work Any other possibility here I may be missing?

Saved me a post in support Lev_19:31 "You are to consult neither mediums nor familiar spirits. You are never to seek them—you'll just be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. Lev_20:6 "I'll oppose and eliminate from contact with his people whoever consults mediums or familiar spirits, thereby committing spiritual prostitution with them. Something is just not right with the interaction in the Samuel passage.

I have met you on one other post and am just getting to know you. I feel that as part of the process of getting to know you I have to let you know that I find your sarcasm belittling. I won't belabor it and bring it up again but I need to let you know how I feel. From what I have read I believe you are an intelligent person that may not share the same views I do but there is no reason to insult me when you disagree. I want to encourage you to continue to challenge my thoughts so that I can grow in understanding, but please do it with respect.

I'm still stuck with ...why would God say not to consult with mediums and then communicate through one? Something is just not adding up in the passage. Maybe we are making an assumption and missing the truth.

I think you are assuming that Samuel talked directly to Saul or that Saul saw Samuel, but I read it as Samuel talking through the medium. I didn't say that it was a demon I just said that Saul did not see Samuel, you are the one assuming it is a demon. People often come away after seeing a medium saying the person that was called up spoke to them when the person called up actually spoke through the medium. A medium is that which something goes through. By getting sucked in I meant he totally believed whatever was coming out of the mediums mouth. There is a reason God doesn't want us messing with them no doubt it is partly to do with what they say, whether by hook or by crook sometimes comes to pass. This definitely is a unique passage in the bible, I'm not claiming to understand it any more than what I have said here. Since you brought it up here's some food for thought; It occurs to me to add this verse already referred to in this chain 2Co 11:14 And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their doom will match their deeds! What are the limits Satan has as "an angel of light" or how his servants appear? Do we know? Satan had a pretty good understanding of scripture when talking to Jesus in the desert....could he have known about the situation between Saul and God and Samuel's involvement in that? If God sees the practice of mediums as detestable why would he then use them as a way of speaking on his behalf and legitimize them to man as a way of communicating with him? Kinda hypocritical isn't it? All just food for thought.

I think we have to be mindful of the language we use here because it can be misleading. The demon cannot pose as someone because then the demon would have to be able to create something in the physical. No, the demon has a very powerful influence over the weak spirit of the person. The Grandparent or Uncle were already in existence and the demon came into their lives. I recognize what you are saying but I think it may not be clear to some others.

1Sa 28:13 The king told her, "Don't be afraid; but what do you see?" The woman told Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the ground." 1Sa 28:14 Saul told her, "What does he look like?" She said, "An old man is coming up, and he's wrapped in a robe." Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed low to the ground and prostrated himself. Saul didn't see anything but someone claiming to see something.....seems he got completely sucked in

It appears to me that you are saying that the thought of the Jews and Christians worshiping the same God " is not only absurd it is patently contrary to logic". Sorry, I am somehow misunderstanding you.

No. My remarks to my knowledge never alluded to that. The Hebrew bible referred to the coming Messiah.And our Christian new testament is testament of that arrival. All by the will of the one God that both Christians and Jews worship. While there is a movement afoot that hopes to promote the (false) notion that Islam worships the same God as we. Hope that clears it up. Yes it does, thanks.....must have been a typo

Soonsister are you saying there are 2 different Gods, one for Christians and one for Jews?

Love the wit

Interesting discussion. I love conspiracy theory as much as the next theorist. True conspiracy is full of intrigue and of course plot twist. Its very nature requires it plays us based on our perceived norms that we believe and then hits us with something we hadn't considered. After all isn't perceived and accepted norms one of the reasons the prophets weren't heeded in the past. I wouldn't expect most people to know this; Mark Carney currently serves as Governor of the Bank of England and Chairman of the G20's Financial Stability Board. By all accounts an important and influential position within the Governmental affairs of the UK. Anything he decides to do is considered to be coming out of the United Kingdom....fair enough..... But he's Canadian.......(guess where I live) Just because the anti-Christ is believed to be coming out of the EU/ revived Roman Empire doesn't necessarily mean he was born in or is a European does it? jus sayn'... Anyways, gotta agree with Out of the Shadows...... nobody knows for sure. I do think we know enough to know that major things are happening. We are inevitably heading towards the time when the anti-Christ will appear and each new player into the political arena will contribute to that in one way or another (not to mention heartless computers and corporations). My spirit is especially stirring when I see the fruits of the spirit coming out of our world leaders particularly the new US president. I think it is important to have a grasp of the end times not so much to point the finger and say 'there he is' but to use them in light of all bible prophecy to say 'in the context of prophecy look at where we have been, look at where we are and look at what the bible tells us about a savior that offers a way out of this'. When we learn about prophecy we can use it to bring us to sharing the prophecy and reality of the Gospel.