Mal'ak

Then you are not reading Revelation chapter 20, it says it very plain. Where are the Billions of souls that are on Earth, once Jesus comes does he do something with them? Because there is no evidence of that, they can not go to Hell, because Hell is empty at this point since everyone in Hell will be coming to Earth when satan comes down. "Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Normally I would ask if you want to discuss the Word of God have at least a couple verses to support your point of view, but you have no verses, because there is not one verse in the entire Bible that supports the non-Christians have their own "rapture" to...who knows where. But for those that might be reading this that care about scripture, and base their beliefs on scripture instead of opinions and church dogma.... Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. "dead" are the non-believers, they are spiritually dead because at this point they are going to the Lake of Fire unless they choose Jesus as their Savior. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The Christians are part of the "first resurrection", which means they received their crown of life when Jesus returns. While the "dead" do not have their crown of life, so they have to wait for the second resurrection which is the White Throne. We are even told what the Christians will be doing, "they shall be priests of God and of Christ". If there are no non-believers why will there need to be "priests", who is the Christians going to teach the Word of God too, other Christians? Of course not, they will be priests ministering to the "dead" or non-believers as they "reign" with Jesus. Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. After the thousand years satan will be released from his prison to "deceive the nations...of the earth", obviously he is not going to be deceiving the Saints to turn against Jesus after they received their crown of life in the first resurrection...so...who is the "nations...on the earth"? Easy if you use common sense and the Holy Spirit, they are the "dead" which were being taught by the Saints for the thousand years and satan coming to deceive them is their test to see if they choose Jesus or satan. Christians had their trial of faith during the flesh age of man, those of the second resurrection will have their trial of faith when satan is released from his prison after the thousand years. Those that follow satan and prove they are evil, they will attack the camp of the saints and Jesus, then God the Father will stop them. Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. At this point satan has done the task he has been granted, being the accuser and is no longer needed for that role, being already judged long before man was created he and the false prophet will be the first to die the second death in the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Again the "dead" are brought before God during the White Throne of Judgment, not the Christians, the book of life is opened and all of the "dead" are judged by their works. There will be new believers that were taught by the Saints during the thousand years, and after they did not follow satan when he was released. There will also be those that did follow satan, and showed they didn't really chose Jesus as their savior. But all of them will be judged by their works by the Father, and those that are not found in the book of life will be killed in the Lake of Fire. There is no interruption in Revelations 20, it is not a parable, you either have eyes to see or not. I just break down the verses to help people understand, but the truth is there without me adding a word to it.

There is no post...pre...mid....there is only the truth, everyone alive when satan comes will be here on Earth, then when Jesus comes everyone will remain on Earth during his thousand year reign...just that the Christians will reign with Jesus, while the non-believers are being taught the truth so they will have a chance to avoid the second death of the White Throne. Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. "let both grow together until the harvest....gather ye together first the tares", the wicked get gathered first...which is receiving the mark of the beast Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. We are told when the Christians will be gathered, "Immediately after the tribulation....they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds.....they shall gather together his elect". Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: "When the Son of man shall come....before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another". Says it many times by Jesus himself, the rapture said to happen before the tribulation...never said once in the Bible, just one "caught up to the clouds" used out of context by Paul where if you read the entire context even says when Jesus returns "1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." As Paul said "we which are alive and remain", and the "trump" is the seventh trumpet or last trumpet in Revelations when Jesus returns. Scared Christians not trusting God, do not want to be here during the Tribulation so as God himself said "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth"

The Flood is an example to us, to explain the great tribulation. There will be no rapture is what Jesus is saying, and when the anti-Christ comes we need to watch for it so we can no be deceived. Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Jesus never gave a history lesson in all his time on Earth, he did not come to be a History teacher or a prophet of flesh events, he came to bring the Word of God and to prepare us for the great tribulation. Christians point to "its a history lesson and Jesus was bored preaching about God, so he did some fun Q&A about flesh events", that is just a cop out because Christians do not want to call Jesus a liar but at the same time rather believe their church beliefs then the Word of God. Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. During the end times, there will be false prophets and will deceive many to turn away from God and even the non-believers to start to worship satan. But it clearly says "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". So there will be Christians on Earth at this time that need to endure this, the non-believers are not going to endure false teachings and be saved obviously. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. After the kingdom of satan, babylon, is setup on earth and the false prophet has been tricking people then according to the prophecy of Daneil that is when satan will come down himself. While satan is here on Earth physically, we are told to "flee into the mountains". Which means we are not to fight or attack satan, but to lay low and endure the lies until Jesus comes. But if there is any doubt, Jesus himself says in verse 22 "but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". So in the original plan of God it was going to be a longer time period, but not even the Christians could endure satan face to face that long, so the time satan is on Earth will be shortened so we can hold out and not worship him as God. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. We are told when the Christians will be gathered, "Immediately after the tribulation....they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds.....they shall gather together his elect". Which works with the thief, we need to learn about the end times and watch for it so we don't worship satan when he comes thinking he is Jesus. The ten virgins is the same, staying pure and "virgins" spiritually by not receiving the mark of the beast before Jesus comes and opens the door to them up at the Temple that will be in the clouds during the 1,000 year reign. 2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not according to Jesus, there are good people and evil people, a good person can never truly be evil and an evil person can never truly be good. That is why Jesus tells us to look at people's actions, if you want to know if they are really good people, or evil people pretending to be good. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. There is a difference between being a sinner in the flesh, and being evil.

There is no predetermined outcome for us, there is for this World. There is a difference there, the things in God's control he already has planned. That is not lacking in free will, that is like us getting up in the morning with a "to-do list" and doing it (the only difference is our plans can be changed because we don't control anything in life, whereas God has power over everything is he can make sure things are done). God knew he was going to create man, he knew man would be temped so he knew there had to be a law, he knew man would not be able to be perfect so he knew he would need to send Jesus Christ to die, and he knows some people are just evil so he will have a Judgement Day and Lake of Fire. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. The concept that confuses people, is not that God controls our actions, but that he knows everything is he already knows our choices and who we will be. That does not mean he made us that way or that he preplanned it, only that God knows everything from before creation to after. If it was predetermined, then God would never have created satan or the fallen angels because he knew they would turn evil, he also would never have created any of the wicked people. If there it was predetermined, he would create everyone he knew would go to eternity and the first day of creation would be the first day of eternal life and the flesh age would never have existed, but that is no fair or just to prejudge someone so the Father in his righteousness let it play out based on everyone's free will and after they show themselves to be evil he can judge them as he points to their life "See this evil you did? This is why you must die". Jeremiah 1:6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. Jeremiah 1:7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. When God spoke to Jeremiah, did he say 'Yes Lord God I will speak all you desire me too, because I feel and know I am destined to do this!' Not at all, Jeremiah refused to speak for God just as Moses refused to speak for God, then God got mad at them both "Say not, I am a child" for thou shall go to all that I shall send thee". That was God's nice way of saying, 'Don't you dare tell me no, do you know who you are talking too?!' God had to visit Jeremiah twice to convince him and show him that he could do it, and that God would be with him so there was nothing to fear. That is not predetermined as God did not snap his finger and Jeremiah turned into a robot 'Yes Lord, all you command I shall do!' Jeremiah 29:23 Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the Lord. God knows and is a witness of our actions, but he does not judge us before we do them. He knows it will happen, but he gives everyone a fair chance to choose him and to be good, but everyone has free will to be good or to be evil and after we make our choice we are judged so why the White Throne of Judgement is not until the end of this age when all has been said and done.

"We seek to live holy lives but it is something that comes from our hearts that have been changed by the Lord when we were born again." I understand the idea, but it does go against the Word of God. You take John 1:12-13 as meaning that when you became a Christian you are no longer having free will, that God has taken over your hearts and causing you to be Christians. But that defeats the entire point of this test called life, God can mind control satan to be holy and righteous so that he could enter eternal life. But God does not want an army of robots in eternity, he wants righteous people that have proven they love him and seek to be righteous no matter how hard it is. 1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. We are told by Peter that our faith will be tested, but if we endure we "might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ". Not because God is controlling us to be good, but because "whom having not seen, ye love: in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing". 1 peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1 peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 1 peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 1 peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: We are told directly to "gird up the loins of your mind....as obedient children, not fashioning yourself according to the former lusts in your ignorance...But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation....the Father, who...judgeth according to every man's work". The point is made clear here, we are not to live according to the "former lusts in your ignorance", which means John 1:12-13 is talking about those that received God into their lives was given "power" which is the Word of God as we are told the truth is our sword to fight evil, so once we learned the truth about God's Word we are to be "obedient" and follow it instead of returning to our sinful ways when we were in "ignorance". Peter himself says "the Father...Judgeth according to every man's work", that God does not care who you are or who you claim to be, all that matters to the Father is if you are living in righteousness and proving your faith is strong by your works. Matthew 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In these Scriptures both Jesus and John are giving us the same teaching, that we are sinners and will fall short, so we need to "watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation". Nothing about God preventing us from falling into temptation, but telling us if we say we are Christians but do evil we are liars. But if we do our best to walk in the light, we will fall short and sin against God, but Jesus will forgive us as long as we confess our sins. Again the forgiveness of sins is not automatic, that God takes over our lives and as we mess up God keeps hitting us with automatic forgiveness. Part of seeking to be righteous is to acknowledge we did something wrong, confess it to God and ask for forgiveness in Jesus' name, then moving forward not do it again. Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I think this is one of the greatest parables when it comes to Grace vs Works, so we hear Jesus' words on the matter from himself. Jesus starts by explaining the Kingdom of Heaven in flesh terms, that Jesus Christ is the "man travelling into a far country", which of course is Jesus raising from the dead and going to Heaven to leave us to continue Christianity without him here physically. Then we are told Jesus "called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods", this is the calling of the faith and Jesus opening our eyes to become Christians, then giving us his goods which are the "Spiritual gifts" we are given like preaching, healing, helps, etc. "one he gave five...another two...another one; to every man according to his several ability", which the Word of God tells us the Father gives us knowledge and works based on our the measure we can handle, some Christians have lots of works and knowledge while others have less. Then we move on to our Christian walk in our lives, "he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents...but he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money....thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers", so with the gifts of the Spirit that we are given we are commanded by Jesus that we are suppose to use them to spread the Word of God and bring Glory to the Holy Father so we can receive the praise from Jesus on his return. But those that do not do God's work, but are too ashamed, when Jesus returns he will "take therefore the talent from him...and cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness". The hard truth is, if you have not lived by God's Word and do not have works when Jesus returns, he will take your "crown of life" and throw you with the non-believers during his thousand year reign.

You have not proven anything, you said "white is not referred to in regards to describe evil, so all other scripture must be dismissed" that is complete nonsense. There are many times in the Bible that the Father explains things to us, but he uses completely different wording and examples to try and get the point across, so your entire "proof" is false. You have not proven anything about the time of the end, using symbolic numbers and times in Revelation is the same as saying real man size scorpions are coming to eat our brains, it is false and on top of that childish logic. On top of that Jesus said the time stated in Bible, even if they were real numbers, where shortened for our sake so we could handle the tribulation "Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." No where does it say what the Tribulation was shortened too, so again another false statement and nothing proven. Again with the 1st century, is another false doctrine, as you are rejecting the Word of Christ once again to fit your tradition of man. "Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Jesus tells us nothing of the prophecy will take place until the Word of God is preached to the entire world, so that everyone on the Earth has a chance to know Christ and it is fair. In the first century there were a few scattered churches only in the Roman Empire, because Paul only traveled through the Empire. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. The context of the entire chapter six starts at chapter one, when John was brought "in the Spirit on the Lord's day". Which we known from many sources like Paul in Corinthians, the Lord's Day is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", which they are still waiting for in the 1st century when Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians. I was not going to reply, because I do not argue as the Holy Spirit does not dwell in arguments, but for the other's on this forum who might be deceived by your false "proof", I just wanted to make clear all your "proof" is just you saying Jesus Christ our Lord is wrong. For all others, we are not in the age of the seven seals, because Jesus himself said that the end time prophecies will be the greatest tribulation man has ever seen in the history of the world. Which is why the Father in his mercy shortened the days of the tribulation, but for some to suggest we have are in those times now is calling Jesus and the Father a liar, since how is it shortened when for thousands of years since the 1st century we humans have lived full lives? Did the Father cause every person to die at the age of 25? No, so how was it shortened so his promise could be fulfilled if we had to endure the seals for our entire life time for the last 2,000 years? The answer is, because the great tribulation has not started yet, and none of the seals are opened yet. The Father is not a liar, but men are.

Oh so because the word "white" is not directly related to anything evil, so that means we have to dismiss all the other scripture? Makes no sense, you just want to be right but have no scripture, simple fact is "white horse" stands for Jesus Christ. But we are told Jesus will not come until after the tribulation and that there will be false Christs, so the first seal can not be Jesus as it describes the beginning of the tribulation and not the end. White: λευκός leukós, lyoo-kos'; from λύκη lýkē ("light"); white:—white. If you look at Rev 6 "white" in the Greek meaning of the original text, it has a root of "light" Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? If you studied the connection between Jesus and lucifer, you would know they are both called "morning star", they were both the princes of heaven before the rebellion. So there is a great deal of backstory of satan to suggest why him and his fallen angels might be considered "light". As all the demons before the rebellion, were angels of Heaven, and so too were angels of light dressed in white.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. You both are missing the important thing, that there will be a false prophet and a false Christ, for them to be said to be "Christ" they will need to appear to me "white". Jesus said that at this time the anti-Christ and false prophet "shall shew great signs and wonders; if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. In Revelation 13 when it explains all the beasts and the dragon, along with what they will be doing on earth, the false prophet is said to look like a "lamb" but speaks as a "dragon". Which obviously fits in with the false prophet coming as a "white horse", since he will look to be holy but really he will be preaching lies to deceive the world.

There are some very good points here, but there is an element that is missing. the devil coming as the anti-Christ will be copying Jesus. What do all know of Jesus' coming? That he will reign for a thousand years, with a kingdom on Earth. So satan will need to do the same thing. While Revelation 6 shows the stages of the creation of satan's kingdom, Revelation 13 gives the details of what each of them will do and who they are: WHITE HORSE: Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, Now we know Jesus will return on a "white horse", so this one is trying to pretend to holy, but also given power to "conquer". This of course is the false prophet, who looks like a "lamb" but speaks like a "dragon". The conquest in Rev 6:2 is explained in Rev 13:12, the purpose of the false prophet and the false Christianity created by him will be to "causeth the Earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast". The "beast" is spoken being ridden by a "harlot", and she will make the kings of the earth drink "the wine of her fornication" because the harlot stands for the false Christianity that will exist on Earth during satan's reign. The harlot is "drunken with the blood of the saints" as well, because the false prophet and this false Christianity will cause many Christians to worship satan thinking they are worshipping Jesus or God. "Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God" Revelation 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. RED HORSE: Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The "red horse" is given a "great sword" or ability to fight a war, while in Rev 13 we see the devil gives the "beast...power...and great authority...to make war with the saints". So the seven head beast lines up with the red horse, and all "the Earth shall worship him". The red horse is the kingdom of satan or government, it has ten horns with crowns, and we know the harlot will make the kings of the earth drink of her fornication. So while the beast is the "one world order" or satan's kingdom which all have to bow down too and join, the horns with crowns are kings or perhaps leading countries the started/lead satan's kingdom on Earth. BLACK HORSE: Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. The "black horse" is the economy of satan's kingdom, and you need to be apart of the kingdom to do business or even buy from the stores. There will not be famine, satan is trying to create a "heaven on earth" to suggest he is Jesus, and that the eternal kingdom has started on Earth. The devil has sown many lies in Christian doctrine now, which is why you have many preaching that the new Kingdom of Heaven will be on Earth and there will be world peace, and that there are no spiritual bodies but we will all be resurrected back into our flesh bodies to live in this "perfect world". These false doctrines are all there, because satan is setting the stage for his coming to Earth. Joe did a good start, but there was a few flaws, the reference to famine and war by Jesus are said to be signs of the coming of the end. As it says in Matthew 24 "ye shall hear of wars....but the end is not yet...there shall be famines...all these are the beginning of sorrows". The World at one point in the future will be getting ripped apart, world war, famine, natural disasters so much that it would seem it will be the end of life as we know it. But that is when the false prophet or white horse will come down, through miracles supporting a religion that will bring peace and unity. Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. PALE (GREEN?) HORSE: Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.GREEN?) HORSE: Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Who is "death" but the "accuser of our brethren", satan is the one accusing us all of sin to cause us to go to Hell. He will come last after his kingdom is already established, and "woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil come down unto you, having great wrath". Which he is also spoken of in Rev 13 which explains the entire satanic kingdom, when he comes down his kingdom will be "wounded", so he will heal the kingdom/government and then given power to it to finish the job of spiritually killing the Christians on Earth by causing them to worship satan in so doing receive the mark. Jesus warns of the coming of the anti-Christ which is satan, he will be the abomination of desolation...stand in the holy place". For those that understand the end time prophecies, the temple in Jerusalem is going to be rebuilt, and from there satan will rule. When you read Daniel 11 there is talk of a "King of the south", which when satan or "vile person" comes he will defeat the "king of the south". It could be those that have not submitted to the beast/kingdom, which was the "wounded head" that satan heals in Rev 13. After satan heals the beast by defeating the king of the south, he will turn against the "holy covenant", but he will do it with "flatteries". Many think it will be demonic scorpions coming down eating people alive until they worship satan, but it will be heaven on earth and lots of flatteries with false doctrine to "deceive" Christians not kill them. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. Daniel 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. WHITE HORSE: false prophet creating the harlot/false Christian religion of babylon RED HORSE: government/kingdom of babylon BLACK HORSE: economy of babylon PALE HORSE: satan coming to rule as anti-Christ

Matthew 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? Matthew 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. There will always be those with what seems the perfect life, they have their trials. But perhaps your trial is the Father not giving you those things, and him watching to see if you stay faithful to him. I can not speak of them, I can not speak for you, I can hardly even speak for myself because I do not take weekend drives to Heaven to speak directly to the Father either. The thing to remember is that we are all strangers in this life, passing through quickly heading for our real home in Heaven. Like Jesus said; make sure you are good with the Father today, let tomorrow worry about tomorrow. I can only suggest you judge your ways; if you are doing your best to obey the law, repenting for your sins, being thankful for what the Father has given you, doing works for him, and asking for his guidance to be the best Christian you can be then you are probably on the right path. That is why envy is one of the biggest sins, because the Father knows if we compare ourselves to each other in envious ways, we will never feel good about ourselves and satan can sneak in to pull us off our path. Feel good about being you, the Father will take care of the rest. Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Mal'ak means Massager of God, and Angel. I do not come to Christians forums to represent myself, but just share what God has shown me to those wanting to know, so Mal'ak is fitting. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: You are missing a very important thing, Daniel was not a Hebrew historian, he was "Daniel the prophet". What is the difference between a Historian and a Prophet? Historian tells histories like what you are suggesting, while a prophet foresees future spiritual events that God sent him to tell the chosen. If the Bible is just a history book to you, then that is completely fine, but you will never receive any spiritual knowledge or growth. Jesus quoted Daniel "shall see the abomination of desolation": Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Which is a direct quote from Daniel 11:31, so Jesus is saying Daniel is prophesizing about the Tribulation. You are calling Jesus a liar, calling Daniel a fraud who was not a prophet, and saying it is just a history lesson. That is why I am just Mal'ak, I say what God has spoken, while others use their flesh imagination to create theological theories.

The "king of the north" is the "beast" or leader(s) of the one world order that will be started before satan comes, that is why Daniel 11 was quoted by Jesus Christ himself in Matthew 24 as a prophecy of the great Tribulation at the end. Daniel 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand. This "king" will come and take the "most fenced cities", if people understand ancient-middle age warfare, when an enemy is trying to conquer an entire nation they would build or take control of the castles because each castle was built in strategic locations to have dominion over the region as the soldiers from the castle can quickly be sent out to stop any uprisings quickly instead of an army needing to be sent from miles away (great example is William the Conquer's conquest of England in 1066). Since Jesus quoted Daniel 11 as part of the Tribulation, we know from the book Revelation that satan's kingdom of Babylon will rule the entire world at that time, so it starts to make sense that the northern kingdom is satan's kingdom which was started by the false prophet and the beast. Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle. Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. Now the "vile person" is satan/dragon, when in Revelations the beast is wounded but the dragon healed the beast. "Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" The "vile person" is of course satan, because he took control of his kingdom when he comes down "peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries". This of course is become satan will be coming pretending to be Jesus, and he will say kind things and do miracles to "flatter" the world with his "kindness" and power so they start to worship him like in Rev 13. Like told by Jesus in "Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. The Daniel 11:31 is the prophecy Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, that is when satan enters the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, proclaiming himself to be God and will rule the Earth from the Temple's inner sanctuary where the ark of the covenant was in the first Temple. Now the "wickedly against the covenant" is when satan will try and spiritual kill the Christians on earth which have the "covenant" of God (Revelation 12:12), but it is not literally killing. satan will be trying to "corrupt by flatteries", which brings us back to Matthew 24 of the wonders to deceive the world as he is pretending to be Jesus/God at this time, so trying to get people to receive the mark of the beast by worshipping him as if he was God the Father. Verse 32 gets into the very end of the Tribulation, some of the Christians "that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits". This is talking about the church of Smyrna/Two Witness (which are the same group of people), they will "instruct" many in the world of God's testimony, then "they shall fall by the sword" which just means spiritually attacked, since in very 34 it says "many shall cleave to them with flatteries". So even after the two witness finish their testimony and "die", it just means they are over powered and spiritually attacked by the lies of satan to stop their testimony. In verse 35 it tells us why, to "try them, and to purge, and to make them white" and prove themselves. While the Church of Philadelphia will not need to be tried as they will be doing as Jesus said in Matthew 24 "run into the mountains". Second Witness: Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ...so you saying you will deny Jesus three times before the cock crows? Here are three scriptures Jesus Christ himself said the saints will not be gathered until "after the tribulation", so here is your chance to call Jesus Christ a liar so you can "prove" you are right about pre trib. Matthew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

That is a very flawed idea. You are suggesting that every Christian that has lived since the day of Jesus are not part of the Church of Christ, that if you served your entire life for God through Jesus that you still go to Hell if you die before Jesus returns. There are two marriages; the first is when Jesus returns the "armies of Heaven" (Rev 19:14) which are the saints that died before Jesus return and they will follow him to join with the Christians on Earth that he will "gather together his elect from the four winds" (Matthew 24:31) after Jesus returns, then this is the "first resurrection" (Rev 20:6) or marriage when they get their crown of life. The "second resurrection" or second marriage does not happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ, "Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." But once the thousand years are finished satan will be loose for a short time to test the world (Rev 20:7+8), those that do not follow him will stand before God at the white throne of judgement and will be judged by their works to see if they will be part of the "second" marriage (Rev 20:13). Christians are all shown to have Crowns, thrones, and white robes. You are right, but does not mean it is eternal, only the marriage is the "resurrection" to eternal life. The elders in Heaven have crowns, but still have not been given eternal life since the marriage of Christ has not happened yet. "Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.", right now on Earth and in Heaven, all the Christians/saints have the crown of life. But it can be "taken" away as is warned in Rev 3:11, so we must continue in the faith until the Resurrection/Marriage. The book of Revelations is symbolic, you pointed out several symbolic meanings already in your post. But the 144,000 Jews is not symbolic, the only thing in the entire book that happens to be literal? So if it is literally Jews that repented, then you are saying there are only 144,000 Jews that will go to Eternity, while the millions others are all going to the Lake of Fire? If you want to be literal, then it has to be all literal right? Obviously that is foolish, the 144,000 is not a literal number of saved neither is it talking of Jews. "Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." When Jesus returns and gathers the saints, they will stand with Jesus on the mount of Sion. It is said the same number from the churches the 144,000, but this is not raptured people as it says "having his Father's name written in their foreheads", but "Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." During the Tribulation the demons are commanded by God that they can not hurt anyone that has the Seal of God on their foreheads, so those with his name in their foreheads will be here during the Tribulation. Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. There are not "Jews" in Heaven, as Jesus said we will all be like the Angels, the Jews was a flesh bloodline. True "Israel" are the "children of the promise", which are all those brought into the adoption of Christ as the "saints". Jew is flesh, and they died when their flesh died. Israel lives on in the spirit, but are all the saints that believe in Jesus Christ. So the 144,000 Jews, is just a symbolic number speaking about spiritual Israel, the Church/Christians/Saints/Chosen.

There is a lot I could break down in your post, but this one part did get my attention. In Revelation 19:14 it does not say "church", it said the "armies of Heaven". Not to say there is a difference, but the line of reasoning that the Church of Christ is something different then the saints on Earth during the Tribulation is clearly not there. There are those in Heaven that will come when Jesus returns, they are the Christians/Church/Saints that have already died. Everyone in Heaven will follow Jesus when he returns, so the Christians from 356 AD and the Christians from 1923 AD. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. As we know from the Word of God, the Church of Christ are all those that follow him, so Christians. There are seven "Churches" mentioned in Revelation, and they are all talked about as John is brought to the "Lord's day", so John is brought to the future during the Tribulation to view what will happen and while he is there he sees the seven churches. If you go into detail, all of them are doing wrong but two, and those that are doing wrong are told to repent. The two Churches that are doing God's will are Smyrna and Philadelphia (these are spiritual names for spiritual Christians groups, not some specific church in history as they are talked about in the Lord's day), Smyrna will be in tribulation for sure as they will be "cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried". Some will point out Philadelphia and say they are the raptured Christians, because God said he will "keep" them from the hour of Temptation. But if you look at the Greek meaning, it means "Guard". We see else where in Revelation where the saints are guarded with the "seal of God", Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. So all Christians alive will be going through the tribulation, just those that obey God's Word in regards to what we are suppose to do during the end times will be guarded while other Christians will be tried and have to prove themselves. "Keep": τηρέω tēréō, tay-reh'-o; from τερός terós (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;

A lot of what you said is very wrong Littlelamb, not to belittle your beliefs, but as a statement of fact. We can break down what Jesus says himself, to explain it as my words means nothing. Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. The beginning of sorrows is the beginning of the tribulation, and from the start Jesus himself says that Christians will be delivered up for his name's sake. It is for his name's sake so would not be the non-believers, so much be Christians here on Earth during the tribulation. Second Witness: Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Mid way through the Tribulation, satan will be kicked out of Heaven and with him he will bring his host of Angels and Hell. He knows he only has a short time before Jesus returns, so he quickly goes after the Christians on Earth. He will try to spiritual kill the Christians like the false prophet and his kingdom already setup on Earth (beast) have already been doing while he was still in Heaven, but now he will come down to join them and make it even harder. The Father made this time even shorter, saying that if he lasted much longer hardly any Christian would be able to endure it. Second Witness: Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. From Jesus' own words, the gathering of the Christians you spoke of happening before Jesus returns is in fact happening at the same time. Jesus will return and start the thousand year reign, and his first act when he returns is to have the angels gather up the chosen to him. The words can not be any clearer "Immediately after the Tribulation", and these are Jesus' words. Second Witness: Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. The two Witnesses prove that the Holy Spirit will still be on Earth, they are the two groups of Christians captured by satan and will testify with the power of God.