wingnut-

Yes, those who are ashamed are naked, meaning no Holy Spirit, so they are unsaved if that is what you mean by lost. Because of our differences regarding the timing of the gathering, we end up with very different outlooks on the millennial kingdom. Another major hurdle is our difference of opinion regarding chronology in Revelation. I can lay out my understanding for you, but the chronology is going to be confusing from your current perspective.

You know, I had my testimony posted on here for many years, but a few software upgrades ago it was lost. All that remained were some replies to it, so I had the board moderators delete the remnants of it at that time. A year or so ago I intended to post an updated version, typed it all out, pasted it onto the site, but then decided not to submit it. I have good reasons for not doing so, not because I am ashamed of any part of it myself, but to preserve the integrity of others that cannot be omitted from it. Over 14 years you would think I would have a lot of material on here, which I do, but I have not created very many threads of my own in all that time, mostly I just engage in someone else's thread when something catches my interest. I am more than willing to discuss any aspect of this that you want, but it would be difficult to compile an entire end times presentation in a single thread, there are so many complex parts. This is your thread though, so on that basis we can discuss anything you want.

I skipped over your first point because I already addressed that in a previous post, so to avoid repetition I am just going to jump to this area. In regards to the above, I am not questioning your motives, and if you got that impression from my posts all I can say is that nothing I have to say is intended to be received as such. Up until about a decade ago, I believed in the pre-trib position myself, and it had nothing to do with fear. It had more to do with programming, as this is what was put into my head and reinforced for decades, so I accepted it. There are very few churches within the entire nation I live that teach anything else, and for those who attend seminary, every major one in existence teaches this theory, as was the case when I got my degree in eschatology. The funny thing is, if I were trying for that degree today they would fail me, despite the fact I understand a great deal more about prophecy now than I did then. I understand the mentality of your position, having once believed the same thing, however, I now see the flaws in it. I'm unclear as to what you are saying above, so I am unsure how to comment other than ask for clarification. Are you suggesting that the "Church" was not made up of Jews until Pentecost, and that these 3000 were the first Jews in the Church? That is correct, the gathering comes much later, on the last day as Jesus foretold. These individuals that came out of the great tribulation were killed during the beast's war on the saints. This is why they are there, and not here. It's interesting, how we can see something so plainly stated, and not see it. For the majority of my life I read this countless number of times, but some invisible veil prevented me from seeing it myself. These three verses are evidence that excludes the pre-trib theory from even being a possibility, which is why it is one of two end times theories that I see as impossible, the other being preterism. The day Paul discusses, is in regards to His coming and our gathering, and that day shall not come, until after the falling away and the beast is revealed. This places the gathering at some point beyond the abomination of desolation, and after what is widely considered the mid point, during the 3 1/2 year period known as the great tribulation. Actually Paul is comforting them not to be troubled by false teachings that claim they missed the gathering, and he then lays out some events that must come first as a guideline, reinforcing that he had shared these things with them before. Fortunately some friendships in my youth led to me being fluent in Greek, so arguments regarding the translation of words have zero impact on me. There are some on this site, who have admitted that if I spoke to them in Greek they would have no clue what I said, yet still think they can convince me that the proper translation is something other than what anyone fluent in Greek says it is. I love my KJV, there is something very comforting in the poetry of the language to me, perhaps nostalgia. However, for ease of reading and assurance that anyone who reads my posts understands, I use the ESV translation here. I prefer this translation above all others because it uses the most literal translation of the Greek and Hebrew.

What you are experiencing is a common issue when two people with very different positions discuss these matters. To understand what you are missing you would have to understand my overall beliefs on the subject, at this point you only have my timing on the gathering itself, and this conflicts with other areas of your position, but it doesn't conflict with mine. Whatever issues you believe are contrary to this possibility, I can explain with scripture, the question is whether you can look at it with a clean slate. One of the main points of concern here are related to the sequence of events, and what our individual understanding of those events represent. There are two main aspects to these things, one is physical, and the other is spiritual. How we decide to interpret each event and which aspect it represents largely determines the direction our beliefs will go. For example, take the mark of the beast, is it physical or spiritual? If I believe it is physical, and you believe it is spiritual, then we come to two very different conclusions in regards to everything related to this mark. These decisions ultimately lead to more theories and/or beliefs than I can even imagine. As I explained before, I take scripture at face value, which includes our instructions as to how to determine what is true and what is not true in regards to it. By that I mean, how one "tests" something against scripture, if a belief hinges on a single verse with no supporting scripture, it simply won't do. God built witnesses into scripture for a reason, and as Paul explained in his letter to Timothy, every single word holds meaning. So, in regards to Noah, let's just look at the facts. 1. The Second Coming will be just like it was in Noah's day. 2. It is sudden destruction, life will be going on as usual right up until the storm hits. It is not slow and gradual, it is immediate and permanent. (This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to follow it.) 3. The Second Coming and the gathering occur at or near the same moment. Every mention of them is together in scripture, they are linked. Now this is how the concept of Noah breaks down in my view, as far as what the event itself represents concerning future application. The ark represents safety and security against the coming storm and destruction of the planet by the flood, which God is doing. The ark is the equivalent of our guarantee in the Holy Spirit, available for everyone who accepts Christ's gift of salvation. Noah and his family took years to build this ark, representative of our personal walk with Christ as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Noah continued to warn the people that a storm was coming, just as we are instructed to deliver the gospel message to people, so they can build their "ark" to escape the coming storm. The storm represents God's judgement on the wicked, not the righteous. Since we know scripture tells us no one is righteous, that would seem ominous except for the fact scripture tells us though we are not righteous, we are MADE righteous. How are we made righteous? By the seal of the Holy Spirit, our guarantee, our ark. Noah and his family were not removed from the earth, or going through the flood, they just were protected from the judgement by the ark, just as believers will not be subject to any of God's judgement in the future, we have our arks as well. This is also represented in other Old Testament events, such as the 10 plagues on Egypt. When the death angel passed over Egypt, all those who had covered their doorframes with the Blood of the Lamb were "passed over", untouched by the plague. There is a consistency to how God deals with people in scripture, and removing people from the earth is not consistent with this age, or any prior age. It only appears in scripture as a future event, at the end of this age, and the end of the age is the harvest of the earth.

Hello brother, I'm glad you started with the Luke passage, because really this gets us right to the heart of the matter. What this really boils down to is, what we perceive the "escape" is about. So let's go over the information that defines "all these things" which we are escaping. The first thing we have to address though, is how we accept scripture individually, because this ultimately colors how we view it. Some are in the habit of picking and choosing what scripture applies to them and what doesn't, I am not one of those people. I believe every word applies to all of us, so in regards to Luke, from the individuals present when Jesus spoke these words up until the present and going forward are the intended audience. Luke 21:5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” The temple was destroyed as Jesus foretold them it would be. Now we know from Matthew's account that He was speaking with His disciples privately. At the time of the temple's destruction, some of these people were already dead from persecution, but some were still alive. Did they escape it? Which ones escaped it? And if so, how? Luke 21: 8 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. Did His audience escape the false messiah's? How about us, have we? In my 14 years here at worthy, there have been literally hundreds of individuals that came to this site claiming to be Jesus. That's just this site, there are hundreds more that never came to this site but have made national news as cult leaders claiming to be the messiah. So, have we escaped this thing? If so, how? Luke 21:9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.” Did they escape wars and tumults? Have we? If so, how? Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Did they escape any of these things? Have we? If so, how? Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. This specific section and what follows are the main issue here, and to avoid this post getting too lengthy I am going to sum up my point here and not continue going through the entire chapter and all that follows. We can see plainly in this section, that the promised "escape" has nothing to do with physical relocation, as these individuals who were present while He spoke were told specifically that they will be taken captive and delivered up to their enemies. Luke 21:16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. Right here, they are told that some of them will be put to death. Yet, look what the very next sentence says. Luke 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish. Executed, but not a hair of their head will perish? Luke 21:19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. So what we have is a promised "escape", in which some will be executed, without a hair on their head perishing, and by enduring they gain their lives...... in death. Everyone should take their time and carefully consider what this means.

Yes, that is how I see it as they describe the exact same signs, including the lesson of the fig tree. The issue of chronology in Revelation is what separates most theories on the timing surrounding end times events. There are numerous things that to me, make it clear that it is not chronological. One of the clearest examples would be the 7th trumpet and what the results of this trumpet are, along with the three woes and their location in Revelation. If I have the time I will look it over so I have a better understanding where you are coming from. One of the biggest issues people face in these discussions is their overall view can interfere with understanding another persons perspective. Neither is mine, so we have that in common. That's my hope as well.

So you don't think this entity is the epitome of evil? I suspect once this man of lawlessness surfaces, the evil we have seen to this point is going to look like a fairy tale life.

William, seriously? What is the title of your thread? On my screen it says, "Are the US and Trump the ones restraining?" Furthermore, you insert irrelevant information to create an argument I never made because your OP is definitively flawed at the foundation, which I exposed. Instead of making false claims about what I say, how about showing me where in our conversation I quoted any scripture for you to falsely state that I misquoted what does not appear.

The relevance is that you are insinuating they are restraining evil when in fact they have been perpetrating evil. What is irrelevant is the attempt to tie historical empires into this conversation that no one claimed was restraining evil. I certainly made no mention of it, so I'm not going to chase a red herring you created on your own that has no application.

Just a quick bit of history to consider, as far as America restraining lawlessness when in fact our government has been one of the biggest perpetrators of lawlessness on the planet. I can offer you one simple example that was made known public in 1971 when Pentagon documents were printed by the New York Times, and then the Washington Post. The classified documents revealed that the White House from the Truman administration, Eisenhower administration, Kennedy administration, Johnson administration, up to and including the Nixon administration, were engaged in crimes against the Constitution of the United States, as well as international war crimes that violated the Geneva convention. This included government corruption, interfering with a sovereign nations election process (Vietnam), numerous counts of perjury, falsifying official documents, lying to Congress, as well as to the American people.

This is something that goes back to Jewish beliefs that it is disrespectful to address God by name. Most often when you see this it is from a Messianic Jew, or someone who attends a Messianic service at a Jewish temple.

No worries brother, I'm in no hurry. II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. 7 But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. In the context of the passage, Paul begins by pointing out that there were members in this church that were not bearing fruit. II Corinthians 13: 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3 since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. So what Paul addresses here is an issue of not turning from sin, and that these members apparently not only continued in their sin, but also called Paul's teachings into question in an effort to justify their sinful nature. Not only is Paul challenging them to test the spirit in themselves, but to test the validity of his teachings against scripture to determine whether his message comes from God or not. Personally, I disagree that people are not aware of whom they serve. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, but to me what this sounds like is a works based salvation mentality mixing its way into your explanation. I suspect that this does not reflect what you believe, but does warrant examination. Typically when something like this occurs, what it reveals is a flaw in the conclusion. In regards to being caught up in the world for a time, I would imagine that is something every believer has gone through at some point in time. I spent my own season wandering in the wilderness, but I think the difference here is that when this occurs, a true child of God is not working against Him. We may not be following Him as we should, but we are not in opposition to the faith, we're simply living in denial and justifying our misdeeds. I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. John clarifies his teaching quite well I think. He states in closing, that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him, or in other words, is clothed with the Holy Spirit. So the requirement remains consistent throughout scripture, the Holy Spirit is the guarantee. The concept of being ashamed is a recurring theme associated with "nakedness" and/or not being clothed. Scripture further clarifies that the clothing required is the Holy Spirit, also demonstrated in greater detail regarding the whole armor of God, which is spiritual armor. Since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there are only two types of children that God sees, children of light and children of the dark. Saved and unsaved. Believers and non-believers. Whatever terminology one prefers to apply, the end result is the same. One group is clothed, and the other is not. One will be ashamed, and the other will not. I would tend to disagree with your conclusions regarding this. Considering the body is glorified, and the brain is part of the body, I would suggest that the thought process would reflect that glorification. While I agree the enemy hasn't been destroyed yet, he is bound and has no influence until he is set free at the end of the thousand years. If you remove the accuser of the brethren from the equation I don't see glorified beings suffering from guilt over sins that have been washed clean. In our glorified state, we have been perfected, correct? As far as rewards go, I have no expectations. I'll be content if my service is cleaning stables, being in His presence is reward enough for me. Considering we are all undeserving to begin with, you are correct, I spend no time considering the reward phase.

Jerusalem.

Yes.

The passage in question from Isaiah is a reference to the Millennial kingdom is probably the response you will receive from most. Following the millennial period there is one final battle that takes place which you can find in Revelation 20:7-10. The issue you are having with this particular passage is in trying to view it as chronological, most prophetic books in the bible are not chronological at all, even within a single body of text like the chapter in question.

My friend, you seem to have missed some of the basic teachings of Christianity. You should be aware that as a Christian, you are a child of God, scripture tells you this fact numerous times. Romans 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Galatians 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” Paul gives a great illustration of this fact in Ephesians. Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Hello not an echo, There is no other reason for John to record it there, other than that is when it was spoken. Unlike the surrounding material, John is quoting something he heard at that point in time of the vision. The most accurate chronology we have in scripture comes from Jesus in Matthew 24, and what John presents aligns with that exactly. I do not. That's exactly my point, all these things that were going on, life as usual, were occurring before the flood had come. The day Noah entered the ark, life as usual stopped, it will be the same at His coming. It is not some slow process, as Paul tells us it is sudden destruction, as was the flood, because it wasn't the rain from above that caught them by surprise, it was the water that came from below. I Thessalonians 5:3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. Ok, but again we are running into the same issue, in which you agreed with me previously. If it were in fact an escape, then every person who is born again is already "ready to go". Now it sounds to me like we are in agreement on the matter of eternal security, at least as far as God will not forsake us, and on that basis there is nothing more we need to do to be received by Him. This fact solidifies that we are preparing for something else, and all the admonitions in scripture to be alert and/or sober point to something other than an escape. No my friend, it wasn't something you said, I am referring to all the scriptures that speak to these things, which I agree are very important. The reason we are given the instructions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc., is because the church has suffered persecution from its foundation up to the present time, and it will continue until the end. When the beast begins his 3 1/2 year reign, it will touch the entire church, not just those in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia.

Actually the reason it doesn't appear in the bible is because it was a made up word, birthed by uneducated, illiterate englishmen following the period of the dark age. The etymology of this made up word tells us that what took place was, they didn't approve of the dominant Catholic church or appreciate their use of latin, so they took the latin word rapturo, which is the latin translation of the Greek word harpazo and they dropped the "o" from it, making it less latin and more English sounding to their ears. Of course the actual English translation of the word harpazo is gathering/ catching away, and that is why you find these words in scripture and not rapture. Major problem with your theory is found in Revelation 12. First, the Jewish people and what is going on with them. Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 3 1/2 year period that satan cannot get at the remnant, they are being protected by the Lord. Isaiah and Hosea both prophecy about this same thing. Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. Same 3 1/2 year period, and here is the second group, the group that the beast will wage war against for 3 1/2 years. It isn't the Jewish people, because they are taken aside by the Lord and protected, they are people who hold to the testimony of Jesus, as in Christians, saints as they are referred to in chapter 13. We are the only group that holds to the testimony of Jesus, that is what makes us Christians. The second major problem your theory has is the passage from I Corinthians, along with Paul's other writings. The group that hold to the testimony of Jesus which the beast wages war on will die, and the dead in Christ rise first. Followed by those who are alive and remain, one resurrection, and only one, according to every scriptural account of the event. Your theory leaves all these folks out, or you have to create a second resurrection that Paul or John do not allow for.

The symbol of the thief is first given to us by Jesus Himself when He addresses the disciples on the Mt. of Olives. Matthew 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. The symbol of the thief is incorporated in the writings of the apostles Paul, Peter, and John in later prophetic passages. This is what is known as a scare tactic, but it is flawed at its foundation when we apply scripture. Not believing a doctrine of men, is not a reflection on a persons faith in Jesus Christ. The only requirement for eternal life is to be born again, sealed by the Holy Spirit. A person either is, or is not, and our acceptance to eternal life will be determined on that basis alone, not doctrinal differences. II Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. Maybe you weren't looking in the right place? Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear: 10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. Here we see that believers (saints) will be under great duress from the beast for the entirety of his 3 1/2 year reign. Some will be killed, and some will be taken captive. They are being killed or imprisoned, as shown in the above passage from Revelation 13. Absolutely not true, not a single word about them preaching in scripture.

Yes, I tend to accept scripture as it is written, and the verse in question is not vague. Not exactly, He likened the conditions at His coming to the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Probably not the best analogy, considering the vast majority of exfil's are done under duress. The idea of an exfil is to remove units from a hostile territory and relocate them in a friendly zone. Soldiers would only take what they can carry with them and blow the rest in place so as not to leave supplies for the enemy. The larger issue with your theory here is the entire concept of preparedness for a believer to depart. You are aware that you when you leave this world you won't be taking anything with you, correct? Assuming your answer is yes to that question, then what one needs to ask themselves is exactly what is required for a believer to "go to heaven". According to scripture, one needs to have faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, which is accompanied by the seal of the Holy Spirit. Since I already have that covered, then it begs the question as to why all the admonitions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc. ?

I agree with everything you said, including the timing of this particular event not occurring until the very end. I agree if we limit this to the ancient city specifically, but keep in mind that Pergamum was more than just a city, it was a region, and one of the larger regions of Turkey at that time which contained all 7 of the churches that John wrote to. Not sure if this will work, but I found some maps that I will attempt to post to show you what I mean. They aren't the greatest maps, but the best I could manage on the computer. The first one gives you an idea of the region of Pergamum, the second one will show the location of the churches and also includes Patmos. Region churches

I agree, the migration did not stop, and we know that those areas are currently heavily populated, and those individuals came from somewhere. Considering the transportation available in the ancient world, it stands to reason that the individuals who migrated to the north would contain some with lineage to Japheth, but it would not be limited to just that lineage either. Asia is a very large area, and considering the means of migration, one also has to account for terrain in any migration models, and what would be the most likely routes that pilgrims would have traveled. Magog is a mystery of course, even from the table of nations in Genesis 10 we are handed a dead end. Of the 7 sons of Japheth we are only given information as far as lineage on two of them, Gomer and Javan. Of the remaining 5, we do have historical information that allows us to trace their original geographic locations, except for Magog. In my opinion, it is not logical to conclude the omission of Magog having sons listed in Genesis 10 means that he did not, especially since the same is true of 4 other brothers that we can trace historically. To me it seems more likely that Magog simply ventured much further away from the others and settled a land far enough away that there was no contact for anyone outside to record what was going on. It is possible that he settled in what is now Russia, but it is also possible that he settled in Europe. It is widely believed by many historians that the line of Japheth did in fact populate Europe and according to the evidence they point to this includes the entire area of southern europe reaching all the way to Spain and Portugal. When we consider the location of the three sons of Noah and where it all began, the spread of migration becomes clearer in my opinion. It begins at the mountains of Ararat, where the ark landed, which is located at the borders of Turkey, Russia, and Syria. Ham was cursed remember, for seeing Noah's nakedness, and appears to be the first to depart from that location. His line would eventually inhabit the land of Canaan and migrated westward into north Africa. Shem and his descendants were to the east of them. Japheth remained in the Ararat region to the north of his brothers, and we know that his descendants migrated into the area of Turkey and into the area of southern Greece. Looking at a map given the locations where they each began, it would appear that Ham's descendants would have traveled to the west and into Africa because to the east of them was occupied by Shem, and to the north was occupied by Japheth. Shem would have gone east and northeast because Ham was to the west, and Japheth was to the northwest. Japheth would have gone to the west and north, and also could have moved eastward where the terrain allowed passage around the mountains. My guess would be that Asia ended up with a combination of both Shem to the east and Japheth to the west. Gog is a whole other issue, because outside of the half dozen or so prophecies from Ezekiel and the one mention in Revelation, the name Gog only appears one other time in scripture. I Chronicles 5:4 we get one mention of Gog, from the line of Reuben, a son of Joel, and that is it. Is the Gog from I Chronicles related to the Gog from Ezekiel? There is no definitive answer on that. I agree, there is no qualifier limiting us. Ultimately that was the point of my post to Marilyn. I think when someone states that an identifier to end time events revolves around something as specific as a "Russian Federation" they have created a qualifier for something that is not definitive, or even likely. Therefore, if one is expecting a Russian Federation as some key component of prophecy, and the actual federation of nations that comes is from elsewhere will they even recognize the event they are looking for? The only thing definitive to me, is that a group of nations are going to come down from the north. It is unwise to attempt to declare what nations those are going to be and use it as a focal point of what is going to occur on a specific timeline when it is speculative at best. What if they come out of Europe for example? It doesn't negate the prophecy being fulfilled, but it may very well mislead people who have convinced themselves the coalition comes from elsewhere from recognizing what has occurred. I agree, and considering the scholars in question are modern (which doesn't mean they are wrong), they offer no reasoning for the sudden shift, no evidence, and no explanation as to why their translation is more reliable than all the translations that came before it. One of the key ingredients for me in all of this comes straight from this understanding, if we compare what Ezekiel prophesied to one of the most stunning, yet overlooked passages of Revelation, I think it speaks volumes. Ezekiel 38 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Revelation 2:12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword. 13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. According to Ezekiel, Gog is from the land of Magog, and he is the chief prince of these people we know for certain originate from Asia Minor or modern day Turkey. The title chief prince indicates someone in a position of leadership or authority. In John's letter to the church in Pergamum he identifies this region of Asia Minor as the dwelling place of Satan and where his throne is located. To me it is fairly clear who is the leader in all of this, and John tells us where his seat of power is found, and it just happens to be in the same region everything else points to. By everything else, I mean all of the different prophecies, this just scratches the surface.

Further proof to the truth of what those of us who are trying to help folks who seem to believe a lockdown was necessary, or that quarantining healthy people is something that was sensible.

Yes, but Joel and all the other prophets were speaking in terms of their time, and the names they list can be traced to specific places geographically. Meshech and Tubal were located in modern day Turkey, which biblically speaking is the area known as Asia Minor, which of course has great significance in prophecy. To further illustrate why we should approach the geography not from our modern day perspective, but from the prophets perspective take the following passage from Ezekiel 38 as an example. Ezekiel 38: 6 Gomer and all his hordes; Beth-togarmah from the uttermost parts of the north with all his hordes—many peoples are with you. Now, we see here that Ezekiel refers to Gomer and beth-togarmah as the uttermost parts of the north. So first, we have to understand the geography from the bible, so look at the table of nations from Genesis and I will highlight some very important aspects. Genesis 10 These are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Sons were born to them after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread in their lands, each with his own language, by their clans, in their nations. From Genesis 10 we can gather that all of these individuals in question here descend from the line of Japheth. Magog is also a descendant of Japheth, as you can see in verse 2. Togarmah is the youngest son of Gomer. Verse 5 tells us that they are coastland peoples, which is very important when you account for all of Ezekiel's prophecies in regards to them, not just chapter 38. The name beth-togarmah needs to be clarified, in that the prefix of beth means house, so the proper understanding is literally, the house of togarmah, clearly identifying the descendants of Gomer's youngest son, Togarmah as the people in question from Ezekiel that he refers to as "the uttermost parts of the north". This is the modern day region in which beth-togarmah existed. Anatolia Togarmah is among the descendants of Japheth and is thought to represent some people located in Anatolia. Medieval traditions variously claimed Togarmah as the mythical ancestor of peoples in the Caucasus and western Asia, including the Georgians, the Armenians and some Turkic peoples (i.e. Oghuzes, Khazars). You can google Anatolia and see the area begins in the southeastern part of Greece and the northwestern region of modern day Turkey, all along the coastline of where the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea meet. According to Ezekiel, modern day Turkey is the uttermost parts of the north, not Russia. Now some of the peoples mentioned do reach inland to the southernmost area of what would be considered today as Russia, but certainly nowhere near the seat of power for that nation. The vast majority of every people included in Ezekiel 38 are found in Turkey, or what John referred to as Asia Minor. The areas they occupied happen to coincide with the region that the Medes come from, which aligns with Daniel's prophecies regarding the end times. To expand on the importance of these groups being referred to as coastland people, refer to Ezekiel's mention of them in other places, here is an excerpt from chapter 27 in regards to Tyre. Ezekiel 27:3 and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrances to the sea, merchant of the peoples to many coastlands, thus says the Lord God: Ezekiel 27:12 “Tarshish did business with you because of your great wealth of every kind; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged for your wares. 13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech traded with you; they exchanged human beings and vessels of bronze for your merchandise. 14 From Beth-togarmah they exchanged horses, war horses, and mules for your wares. 15 The men of Dedan traded with you. Many coastlands were your own special markets; they brought you in payment ivory tusks and ebony. From Ezekiel 27 in total, you can see that all the nations or peoples mentioned are specific to the area known as the middle east, and only touches the southernmost region of Russia. If you refer back to the table of nations from Genesis 10, you can also see that the majority of peoples mentioned are directly linked to the genealogy of Japheth, including Tyre. Most importantly though, Ezekiel says plainly that the descendants of Japheth are coastland people, and that really doesn't describe Russia at all.

No problem, thanks for indulging my curiosity. If I am understanding you correctly, this idea is based on your belief that Rosh = Russia? If that is the case I wanted to offer you this for consideration, and am certainly willing to discuss the geography as I understand it. Rosh Hebrew: ראש rosh "Head" Rosh is the seventh of the ten sons of Benjamin named in Genesis 46:21. A nation named Rosh is also possibly mentioned in Ezekiel 38:2–3, 39:1 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; and prophesy concerning him." This translation "Rosh" is found in NASB but not in KJV and most modern versions. Also in a variant reading of Isaiah 66:19 (MT) and the Septuagint Jeremiah 32:23. Most scholars see this as a mistranslation of נְשִׂ֕יא רֹ֖אשׁ, nesi ro’š ("chief prince"), rather than a toponym. Most versions read like this below, which according to the majority of scholars and translators over the millennia is the proper reading. Ezekiel 38: 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.