wingnut-

I wouldn't imagine so either OO, most likely just those from amongst the remnant of Israel.

I respect your opinion as well. If you are reading me as though I think I am right though, then you are misreading me. This has nothing to do with me. And if you read this whole thread, you would have noticed that I was mistaken regarding a point and admitted to that, so either you missed that or you didn't read the whole thing. My arguments are based on what scripture actually says versus what people infer it says, I don't believe scripture needs interpreting. I am sure we agree that scripture is never wrong. No, your post was not what I was referencing at all, although you make a few assumptions about me in this post. No worries about that, I was simply answering your questions as best I know how. God bless

Why is it important? Mostly because of the order of the appearance. You see, what those from a pre-trib position teach is that Jesus will return first, but what scripture reveals is that the anti-christ will appear first. What happens as a result of changing the order around? Well, the anti-christ and his false prophet will come performing great signs and wonders, and this will deceive many people. If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone say to an unbeliever, "Well, when all the Christians disappear, you will know the bible is true." So what happens to them when the Christians don't disappear? It wasn't so vitally important to me for most of my life, I was taught and believed the pre-trib theology from the time I was a child, through my teens, through my time at Liberty University where I studied eschatology specifically, and well into my adult life. It was in a discussion on this forum that an individual presented me with scripture that I had no answer for, and as a result of the confusion it brought me I asked the Lord for clarification on the matter. Over time the Holy Spirit has led me to an entirely different conclusion than what I once believed. Christians today are very skeptical when someone dares to mention that the Holy Spirit leads them to something, and I understand that as well, we are told time and again to beware of false prophets and teachers. It stands to reason that we should be skeptical, but we are also told how to determine the truth of any matter, and that is by scripture and the Holy Spirit. So if someone makes a claim and it opposes scripture, it is easy to dismiss such claims. I believe what scripture says, and I will stand on that as long as I live. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit as well, though so many today argue against them and their application today. Now I can't convince anyone of anything, but I am convinced from my personal experience that what I present is the truth, and that anyone who takes it to the Holy Spirit within them will come to the same conclusion. I discuss this matter not because I enjoy confrontation, but because I am certain this is what the Lord wants me to do. As for why He wants me to I can only speculate, but perhaps it has to do with the lateness of the hour and His desire that people be prepared. Well, as I said this is something I am convicted to do, and I am serving the Lord according to what He wants of me. If the Lord convicts you to do something, do you do it? I agree no one knows the day or the hour, and that we all serve a purpose. I do not know what your calling or purpose is, but it is most likely not the same as mine, as each part of the body serves a specific purpose. I know I am not the only one the Lord has given this purpose to though, nor do I claim to know all there is to know about the end of days. I know a specific piece of it because I asked to know it, but there are still many questions I have that I do not know the answer to. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I am not that clever and did not come up with this on my own. There is a reason I can present my position with scripture, and it encapsulates all of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. I can't tell you how many times I wish I had never asked God to know about this, it is not easy to be accused by your brethren, to have accusations levied against you, or even have some go so far as to say you are condemned. Maybe that is why this is how He wants me to serve Him, because I don't really care what people think of me personally. I honestly can't say, but I would certainly hope that my brothers and sisters would understand doing His will. God bless

Amen sister.

Hey angels, Yes, I am very familiar with those threads, particularly with the pre-trib position as I once held that position myself and argued that position. I believed pre-trib for the majority of my life, until one day I was presented with something that could not be reconciled to that position. I asked the Lord for guidance on the matter and that ultimately led to my current beliefs, so I have no doubts about the timing of the gathering anymore. God bless

I'm not quite post-trib either, but only a slight difference. What scriptures do you see as being pre-trib?

I agree, definitely no pre-trib rapture. Pre-trib and preterism are the two views that are simply not possible. I also agree that there is no mention of 7 years, the great tribulation is for 3 1/2 years. We agree that Daniel's 70th week has long since been fulfilled according to scripture as well. I am curious in regards to this statement, "All Apocalyptic prophecy uses day-for-year symbolism", where in scripture do you arrive at that conclusion? Are you basing that on Ezekiel 4? I am not disagreeing, just curious how you arrive at that specifically. God bless

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

Well, those who are called are blessed because they are not part of the slaughter, not that hard to figure out. The marriage is indeed a metaphor, like most of the book of Revelation. You are approaching the spiritual from an earthly perspective, at this point the things of the earth are being done away with. The scripture I posted is not vague about the fact there is no marrying or being given in marriage. Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. You should really pay attention to what those verses say, because they are the true sayings of God as well. And I'm not trying to prove anything, I am just pointing out with scripture the error in expecting an earthly ceremony. Let me ask you this, are the angels getting married at your ceremony? Revelation 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. All references to wine are attached to the wrath of God in Revelation, and to the same event where the birds are gathered for the great supper of God. There is absolutely nothing positive about it other than to be on the right side of this battle. I never said otherwise, this is a non-argument or an attempt at distraction. However if you are suggesting we will not be able to recognize the time as it approaches I would remind you of this passage. I Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Try the preceding passages to what you just posted for the answer to your question. I Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. See there, He is only bringing with Him those who sleep in Jesus as He leaves heaven, those who remain alive meet them in the air as the scripture states. Unless you subscribe to soul sleep this shouldn't be hard to understand, the departed go to heaven in Spirit upon death, their glorified bodies are what will be raised. Agreed, it doesn't say anything about a white horse in that passage, but scripture also does not speak of multiple comings and goings either, yet you have no problem with adding those in there. I do, based on the fact that Jesus said I will come again, He never once said I will come again, and again, and again, and again. Revelation 19 says He will ride out on a white horse, and that is good enough for me. I always do and will continue to do so. God bless

I am unable to engage in a serious discussion with you following your latest responses. Best wishes to you.

Well said, I personally would put us at stage 8, dependence back into bondage. Apathy has long run its course. I remember back in the late 70's there was a fast food chain called Burger Chef, they were as big as McDonalds and Burger King at the time. They got caught using horsemeat instead of hamburger and within a year the public put them out of business. Two years ago Subway got busted for putting non-edible product in their bread and no one blinked an eye about it. This year they got busted because their chicken isn't chicken. People are just asking for everyone to follow suit when they don't react to things like this, so it is safe to say any food you eat out is probably not all food anymore. Folks are always quick to complain about what is happening in the world, but lifting a finger to do anything about it, well, that's just inconvenient.

Hello Marilyn, Thanks for the clarification on that. I agree that the labor pains began with the fall of man as well. For any woman who has given birth, or any man like myself who has been present through the delivery of a child, we certainly have a fairly good understanding as to how labor pains intensify over time. Ultimately they are strongest just before the delivery, so I agree that the labor pains in Matthew and I Thessalonians are at the final stages, the sudden destruction being somewhat of a metaphor for the birth itself. In regards to the overall topic at hand, I wanted to get your opinion on this passage as well, written by Paul, and ask your opinion on how it falls in the overall picture in your view according to timing and what it represents. Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. The passage from the OT that Paul quotes is from Isaiah 54:1 if you want to look at that as well. God bless

praying

Hello Marilyn, Yes, the timing is always the sticky point as we have different views approaching things. It is often about misunderstanding from the point of what the other person's viewpoint is as opposed to our own. I guess when it comes to the end of the age, I am not really clear as to what your meaning is on that. If I am understanding you correctly, you believe this is post-millennium? Is this in your opinion the same gathering as Matthew 24 then? Also, if this is post-millennium then are you saying that all of the Jewish elect face the GWTJ? I'll wait for your response as to clarification. God bless

Hello Marilyn, I'm curious as to what you mean exactly by the above in regards to the labor pains, are you suggesting that they do not begin until the tribulation? If so, I am curious as to your understanding regarding this passage from Romans, which indicates the labor pains have been going on for some time. Enjoying the direction this discussion is going, so looking forward to your clarification and response. Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. I'm unclear as to whether you are referring to just the passage from Paul, or in regards to what is stated in Matthew 24. God bless

No, prophecy is not just limited to predicting/ telling the future. I don't see that there is anything to add to scripture, so I think there is a difference between prophets of the OT and prophets today. I Corinthians 14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

Excellent point retro.

I don't know that I would say it is because of entitlement, more like they were born into a time where they have been saturated with sexual impulses of the previous generation. It is everywhere, TV, movies, billboards, magazines, etc. I think my generation has to take responsibility for the downward spiral of morality in the millennials, what other outcome could have been expected.

Sorry, just another attempt at deflection. I was simply clarifying that I was speaking about people currently alive, as in today. Now you want to disagree with me about what I meant, which you are not qualified to do. Again, I'm not post-trib, but you don't seem to be able to grasp that either. It is not the same word used for the gathering/ catching away, the falling away is completely different, hence a different word used and a different translation into English. It does not come afterward, it comes before. Matthew 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Luke 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls. In both Matthew and Luke's discourses this happens prior to the AoD, just as Paul describes. This is the falling away, again, a completely different word than the gathering/ catching away. What do you suppose the betrayal is regarding? You love the order and then add all these extra waves that don't exist in the order, amazing. I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits ( FIRST WAVE already happened), afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (SECOND WAVE only other option) Don't let anything like scripture get in the way of your imagination. Funny, nobody wrote about it anywhere, not according to what Paul wrote, not according to what John wrote, or anyone else for that matter. Then surely you can provide the scripture where Jesus tells us He will come again, and again, and again, and again. And what are all those sleeping people doing following Him out of heaven? Why follow Him out just to go back where they were? Funny how every time I post scripture you don't actually address the scripture posted but deflect to different scripture. When the head and body are joined, yes. And once again you fail to address the scripture posted, this is a common pattern for you. Once again you are the one guilty of that. Please provide the scripture that states the great multitude was raptured, and the statement that they come out of the tribulation DOES NOT say that. This is where you are getting creative. I'm not guessing at anything, the word harpazo is used there, and that is where the word rapture is derived from, the latin word for harpazo is rapturo. Nice try, but you are talking in circles. I'm not guessing, He only said He is coming again. That means once, you have to add all these extra comings and goings to construct your theory, sorry, but adding things that are not written doesn't work for me. Again I'm not guessing anything about Revelation 19, it is simply you not understanding the timing as I see it and then confusing your theory with what I believe. You are guessing that I believe these things are just listed, and you are incorrect about that as well. Again, I'm not guessing, and I referred you to what Paul wrote because he gives a definitive order that John also is clear about. There is only one resurrection of God's people in the end times, you insist on penciling in things that don't appear. I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The two witnesses can only be a part of this resurrection because it is the only one for God's people, the resurrection after the millennium is for the dead, as in non-believers. And here you are guessing again. The passage does not say only the elders rose, it says many, and 24 does not qualify as many over the span of roughly 4000 years. Revelation is a revealing of the end times, the first resurrection is the first resurrection in this specific revealing of prophecy. It is not speaking of all time, and the two resurrections John speaks of are one for believers, and one for non-believers. Paul confirms this in his order from I Corinthians, Christ's resurrection as a past event, and only one more for God's people to follow. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. This is the second resurrection John spoke of, and it is for people outside of salvation, hence why they are judged and then cast into the lake of fire, the second death. This group dates all the way back to the beginning, and includes anyone who did not accept Jesus from the beginning of time until this time. The OT saints were already resurrected as firstfruits. I Corinthians 15: 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. The second group, those who are His at His coming is where the church fits in, along with the two witnesses as it is the only resurrection left for anyone to be part of as far as God's people are concerned. It has to be, there is only one more resurrection, any other theory must add a resurrection that neither Paul or John wrote about. God bless

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” Matthew 13:37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

You don't want to go through life afraid, God does not give us a Spirit of fear, but one of power and might. We live in the world, but we don't conform to the world. You can't go through life hiding and still spread the good news of Jesus can you? I Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. We have to be in the world to fulfill the great commission, and at the same time safeguard ourselves from being corrupted by it. Stay away from temptation, anything you struggle with internally should be avoided. For example, if your flesh desires to do drugs, do not spend time with those who do drugs until you have control over yourself. God bless

His statement is absolutely correct. Could this have been the mindset of the individual from last week? It very well may have been. As others have pointed out, making a decision to go to war with the government has consequences, particularly if you lose. The founders understood very well that if they had lost the Revolution they would have been executed for treason. The same as the Confederacy realized if they lost the Civil War there would be consequences as well, and they too expected to be executed in the event they lost. Fortunately for them, Lincoln was not a tyrant and allowed the leadership to relocate and the common soldier to return to their homes. I wouldn't expect that kind of grace to be extended today. God bless

Amen Ted Our purpose is to present the love of Jesus to them and let the Holy Spirit do the work of conviction regarding sin in their life, we are not qualified for that.

Of course they can be redeemed, Jesus' sacrifice can cover any sin. I have done a lot of witnessing to those trapped in this sin, and it is a sin the same as any other sin. It is always easy for those who do not struggle with a particular sin to come down harshly on those who do, homosexuality makes for an easy target in this way. Like any one of us who were caught up in a sin, we don't just suddenly stop sinning just because we get saved, it takes time, it is a process. I know many who have turned away from the homosexual lifestyle, but it didn't happen overnight, they require discipleship the same as everyone else, so we need to consider that when trying to speak to them. God bless

I said no living person as in currently alive, Isaiah and Ezekiel were prophets, completely different. Of course not, but scripture says what it says, we are gathered in the air. I am not going to try and change it, I will accept what it says. Departing? What departing? You have an interesting way of trying to change things to say what you want them to. I am assuming you must be referring to the falling away Paul speaks of. It is not a departing, nor is it the gathering, the word harpazo is not what is used there. II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, What Paul is saying here is that the anti-christ comes first, the falling away is the great apostasy that happens because of the AC. Not at all what you claim. Paul's order is found in I Corinthians 15:23. I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. I know you don't like the order because it eliminates all your comings and goings, but there it is all the same. Of course you are, you just must not realize it. Let me explain it to you this way, if the church leaves at the beginning as you claim, are you saying no one dies during the tribulation? I would say not, which means you are putting the resurrection of the living ahead of the resurrection of the dead, you can't have it both ways. Paul tells us we are all changed at the same moment right? So how do the living get into heaven? Can't be in the natural body can it? Which means the resurrected body, which means you are putting the living ahead of the dead. Again, read the order Paul gives. You should, and this is what He says. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Jesus says He will go and prepare a place, and COME AGAIN and receive them to Himself. He is coming to earth again, that is where He will be, that is where we will be. He doesn't receive us to Himself, UNTIL HE COMES AGAIN. John doesn't give you an order, and the difference is I know what a marriage is, when the two become one. I would also like to remind you of your imagined wedding, that we are told several times that there is no marriage, which should make it clear this is a metaphor. Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. It is symbolic, these verses specifically tell you that, they don't say "for in eternity" like most people read them, one says in the resurrection and the other says when they rise from the dead. NO MARRIAGE, it is symbolic, a metaphor. You are looking at this from the natural view, think spiritual my friend. Changing the order of things has you stumped, thinking of things to come as though they resemble things of this world has you stumped as well. So will I most likely, because that group will be killed during the tribulation, which is the fate of the saints who live to see the AoD. Either we will have died from natural causes before then or we will face the music, either way we will be there, just not the way you imagine. God bless