What did God create first?

[HAZARD]

Jesus Christ was the first ever creation (Colossians 1:15 Proverbs 8:22-36)

He was never a created being. He was the Word who became flesh.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1).

As a member of the Godhead, He had no beginning as was always with the father an eternal being.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14).

Only as a man He had a beginning, about 2000 years ago.

Haz.

[savoyard]

Jesus Christ was the first ever creation (Colossians 1:15 Proverbs 8:22-36)

I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say, so I will take this as saying that that Jesus Christ was the first creation, meaning that Jesus was created. If I am wrong, then please, let me know.

You quoted Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36, so lets look at the full context of these scriptures.

Colossians 1:15-18 (New King James Version)

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

I first underlined scripture is the verse you quoted. The second is what it means. In this scripture, being the firstborn means that He was the first of anyone who had died to be resurrected. It does not mean that God created Jesus before Jesus created everything else.

Proverbs 8 (New King James Version)

The Excellence of Wisdom

1 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice?

2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, beside the way, where the paths meet.

3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:

4

[nebula]

Savo -

If Jesus was created, then He is not God.

If Jesus is not God, then all of us who worship Him are guilty of idolatry.

Is this a point you would agree with?

[Ovedya]

Yes, wisdom is the personified here but notice in Proverbs 8:22 wisdom says "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements long ago." So this scripture is pointing to something else other than wisdom in itself because God has forever been wise (Ps. 90:2) Jesus however was the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and the earliest of his achievements. The Son existed in heaven before he came to earth and as God's Word, or spokesman, he was the perfect expression of God's wisdom.

This argument fails on the simple premise that the Proverb is in fact talking about wisdom:

"I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions." (Prov. 8:12). This verse establishes that it is wisdom that is speaking in the succeeding verses.

Interesting that you cite the verse as "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of His way..." and not "Jehovah produced me in the beginning of His way..." The Hebrew word actually means "to be brought forth, to be produced." Therefore there is no assumption, nor can it be read to indicate that wisdom preceded God. Nevertheless the narrative in this passage is written in a metaphorical sense, not that wisdom is really a person, that it is a creation of God. God is the source of wisdom and the producer of wisdom. Wisdom originates in God and it is brought forth from God.

Your citation is directly from the New World Translation which tells me that you are likely a Jehovah's Witness. I know of no other discerning Christian who relies on the NWT as a serious translation.

~~~

The phrase "Firstborn" refers to Jesus' inheritance, not to His having been created. Are you at all familiar with the Biblical principal of the Firstborn and how the term is understood in its proper context? If so, please share.

[OneLight]

Jesus Christ was the first ever creation (Colossians 1:15 Proverbs 8:22-36)

I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say, so I will take this as saying that that Jesus Christ was the first creation, meaning that Jesus was created. If I am wrong, then please, let me know.

You quoted Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36, so lets look at the full context of these scriptures.

Colossians 1:15-18 (New King James Version)

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

I first underlined scripture is the verse you quoted. The second is what it means. In this scripture, being the firstborn means that He was the first of anyone who had died to be resurrected. It does not mean that God created Jesus before Jesus created everything else.

Proverbs 8 (New King James Version)

The Excellence of Wisdom

1 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice?

2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, beside the way, where the paths meet.

3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:

4

[savoyard]

Jesus Christ was the first ever creation (Colossians 1:15 Proverbs 8:22-36)

I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say, so I will take this as saying that that Jesus Christ was the first creation, meaning that Jesus was created. If I am wrong, then please, let me know.

You quoted Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36, so lets look at the full context of these scriptures.

Colossians 1:15-18 (New King James Version)

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

I first underlined scripture is the verse you quoted. The second is what it means. In this scripture, being the firstborn means that He was the first of anyone who had died to be resurrected. It does not mean that God created Jesus before Jesus created everything else.

Proverbs 8 (New King James Version)

The Excellence of Wisdom

1 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice?

2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, beside the way, where the paths meet.

3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:

4

Edited April 1, 2009 by savoyard

[savoyard]

Found it!! (how to make a reply)

Many Christians use the New World Translation in fact note what some Bible scholars have said of the translation:

Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University who published a 200 page study of nine of "the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world."

His study was in controversial passages where "bias is most likely to interfere with translation." He compared Greek texts with each English translation and his conclusion was "Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation." He does disagree with a few renderings but he says the NW "emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared." and calls it a "remarkably good" translation. (Awake 2007 p.14)

This Study used : (NW, Amplified New Testament, The Living Bible, New American Bible with Revised New Testament, New American Standard, NIV, New Revised Standard Version, Bible in Living English, and KJ)

Also Dr. Benjamin Kedar a Hebrew scholar in Israel made this remark on the NW "This work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible...I have never discovered in the NW any biased intent to read something into the text that it does contain."(Awake 2007 p.14)

The number of Bible scholars that agree with the NW translation can fill volumes but there are some that don't like it. But the evidence is clear, it is an accurate translation. (there are many good criticisms of the translation in Bible scholars, Biblical Commentaries, textual analysts,Bible Encyclodedia's, etc.)

Even though you may not be a Witness, The NW is an interactive fun Bible with thousands upon thousands of inter-Biblical cross-references for entertaining reading.

But we don't use just the NW we use all Bible's but because of it's accuracy we use the NW as our translation.

Edited April 1, 2009 by savoyard

[HAZARD]

Found it!! (how to make a reply)

Many Christians use the New World Translation in fact note what some Bible scholars have said of the translation:

Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University who published a 200 page study of nine of "the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world."

His study was in controversial passages where "bias is most likely to interfere with translation." He compared Greek texts with each English translation and his conclusion was "Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation." He does disagree with a few renderings but he says the NW "emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared." and calls it a "remarkably good" translation. (Awake 2007 p.14)

This Study used : (NW, Amplified New Testament, The Living Bible, New American Bible with Revised New Testament, New American Standard, NIV, New Revised Standard Version, Bible in Living English, and KJ)

Also Dr. Benjamin Kedar a Hebrew scholar in Israel made this remark on the NW "This work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible...I have never discovered in the NW any biased intent to read something into the text that it does contain."(Awake 2007 p.14)

The number of Bible scholars that agree with the NW translation can fill volumes but there are some that don't like it. But the evidence is clear, it is an accurate translation. (there are many good criticisms of the translation in Bible scholars, Biblical Commentaries, textual analysts,Bible Encyclodedia's, etc.)

Even though you may not be a Witness, The NW is an interactive fun Bible with thousands upon thousands of inter-Biblical cross-references for entertaining reading.

But we don't use just the NW we use all Bible's but because of it's accuracy we use the NW as our translation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

Hi 'savoyard'

You wrote,

"Many Christians use the New World Translation in fact note what some Bible scholars have said of the translation:"

.

There's no way I will fall for that typical JW ploy to get me to use the NWT Bible for my study Bible. The NWT Bible is the typical how to distort and twist the Word of God Bible! I would never use the New World Translation. The King James version is the one most Christians use.

What Jehovah's Witness New Converts Have Not Been Told By Their Own Organization:

When they translated their New World Translation they deliberately altered almost every scripture on the deity of Christ, to make him only a creature.

The Society used a translation by a SPIRIT MEDIUM, Johannes Greber, to support their rendering of John 1:1 with full knowledge that his sources were DEMONIC. Greber was exposed in the Feb. 15/56 Watchtower. However in 1961 they released a translation based on his occult one, then denied they knew what they were doing on page 31 of the Apr. 1, 1983 Watchtower!

The identities of the translators of the New World Translation are only a secret to Witnesses. Everyone else knows who they were!

None of the New World Translation "translating committee" knew much Biblical Greek or Hebrew. No scholars at all. And this is the reason why the identities of the translators are kept from the average Witness.

The entire content of the 27 New Testament books were not originally intended to be applicable to the average Jehovah's Witness, rather the 144,00 class only!

The Organization once taught that the worship of Jesus was OK.

The Organization once taught that Jesus crucified on a cross not a stake. They even had pictures of Jesus hanging on crosses in their publications.

The Organization once taught that celebrating Christmas and civil holidays was OK.

The Organization once taught that serving in the Military was OK.

Judge Rutherford, president of the Society, was an alcoholic.

Fred Franz, who for many years headed the Society, perjured himself under oath in Scotland in a court trial, by saying he could read Hebrew, and then failing a simple Hebrew test.

That there absolutely no evidence that Matthew was ever written in Hebrew, much less that this "missing Hebrew original" used the word "Jehovah" (YHWH) throughout. (Jw's love to claim that all other Bibles deleted YHWH, whereas their Bible added it without any support from the original text.) In Aid to Bible Understanding page, 887, they actually admit that there is absolutely no tangible evidence that any of the NT writers ever used YHWH in their writings.

Jw's own "Aid to Bible Understanding" book admits on pages 884 & 885 that the spelling of "Jehovah" originated with a Catholic monk named Raymundus Martini in the 13th Century.!

Watchtower organization prophesied that all churches would be destroyed in 1918

Watchtower organization prophesied that world-wide anarchy would come in 1920

Armageddon and Christ's second coming were foretold to happen in 1874, 1914, 1925 and 1975 by this "non-prophet" organization.

When Christ failed to show up physically in 1914 as predicted, the Society claimed in later years that He had come invisibly--of course, and all Jehovah's Witnesses believe this today.

The date 1874 was taught for Christ's invisible presence by the Society right up till 1929. (See their book, "Prophecy", page 65).

The 144,000 originally included all the new converts of Watchtower. However when they exceeded 144,000 new coverts, they invented the two class system only at that point.

Top executives of the Society have admitted under oath that they forced their members to accept false prophecies or face disfellowshipping and be found worthy of death.

Blood transfusions, vaccinations and organ transplants were originally condemned because Jw's view man as wholly physical and based upon the medical science of the 1800's, they feared that tendencies to sin could be transmitted like a disease through a transfusion or organ transplant. Is it only a matter of time until they change their view on blood transfusions too? Give's the expression, "I can't help it...it is in my blood" a whole new meaning!

An early Watchtower publication called Zion's Watchtower said that a new view of truth can never contradict a former truth. "New light" never extinguishes older "light" but merely adds to it. (Zion's Watchtower, February 1881, page 3.)

And heres what world's leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:

Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."

"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"

"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)

the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)

An example of only one typical but serious misstranslation in the NWT Bible;

John 1:1; "Word was God" is changed to "Word was a god."

The JWs reject the orthodox Christian belief in the deity of Jesus. The revision asserts that Jesus was someone other than God Himself, and a creation?

Savoyard, I feel for you. I know you think you are on the right track but your so far left you will eventually fall off it altogether. Truly Born again Christians, led by the Holy Spirit alone and not by the ramblings and pet thories of mere men, will never fall for that one. That changing of and God's Word is led by another spirit.

Read these Scriptures with an honest and open heart asking the Holy Spirit to guide you and pray about them and we will see what you come up with, unless of course you are so well grounded in the JW's ways that you refuse to reply at all.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19).

To finish with what savoyard said, and so that anyone thinks what was said by savoyard may be true here's what Jw's believe, but won't initially tell people when they knock on doors and ask if they think the world would be better off without war, suffering, sickness and child abuse:

If you become a JW and then leave them because of their false teachings, you will be literally shunned. You family that remain in the organization will not be permitted to even talk to you!

The Watchtower Society is the only source of truth on earth today and your soul will be destroyed if you refuse their organization.

The Watchtower Society and its followers are all prophets of God today and the Governing Body is directed by angels from God.

The Watchtower and Awake magazines originate with and are treated as equal to the Bible.

They deny the that God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

They deny the deity of Christ (Arian view) Jesus is a created being also called Michael the archangel, and was the first and only direct creation of God.

Jesus was not the Christ (Messiah) until age 30, even though their own bible says in Luke 2:11, "because there was born to you today a savior, who is Christ the Lord."

They deny the bodily resurrection. After Jesus was buried in the tomb, Jehovah dissolved his body into gases and it disappeared forever.

Jesus rose invisibly in three days, so Jehovah had to "materialize" a fake body for him complete with fake nail prints so His disciples would believe it was really Jesus risen.

They deny the personality of the Holy Spirit (viewed by the Watchtower organization as "God's active force", similar to radio waves)

They deny man consciously survives death.

They teach the eternal punishment of the lost is annihilation.

They deny the bodily, visible return of Christ (Christ's "return" was only His "turning his attention" invisibly toward earth in 1914, and there was an invisible "rapture" of the dead members of the 144,000 in 1918.)

The cross is a pagan symbol of sex worship, and that all buildings or persons displaying the cross are likewise pagan. Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus died on a cross but a stake. However, recent "new light" in the Watchtower now admits they are not certain about the cross, but will continue to deny it anyway. Further, the watchtower originally claimed it was a cross.

No one goes to heaven but 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses.

They teach Christ is the mediator for only the 144,000, not the average Jw.

Teach only the 144,000 must be "born again", not the average Jw.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob etc. were to be back on earth as perfect humans in 1925. The Society built a palatial home called "Beth Sarim" for them BUT when the patriarchs failed to show up, the President of the Society moved in.

Their light gets "brighter and brighter", allowing for many changes and "about faces" on their doctrines. Yesterday's error is today's "truth". Often the "light" bounces back and forth from old to new views and back again! (Might we call this discarded truth… "black Light"?)

Blood transfusions are rejected and if a Witness receives one willingly, it results in his eternal death. However, the society allows Hemopheliacs to consume blood for medical purposes to save their life.

To salute the flag is an act of idolatry.

Participation in any civil holidays, mothers day, birthdays brings condemnation of God.

Only persons who use the true name of God, Jehovah, will have their prayers heard by God. No salvation is possible without using the name "Jehovah."

All the above and more can be found here;

Link,

http://www.bible.ca/jw-start.htm

Haz.

[pokemaughan]

I think He created the heavens (the universe... the space we're in) and the earth (the celestial bodies... planets, namely ours)

[Ovedya]

HAZARD,

I'll need you to cite the source document for your last post.

Thanks,

~O