The Pre-Trib Rapture, and the Book of Revelation

[Massorite]

Hey Murse, what would you say if I told you that nobody has ever gone to heaven except those who have been taken without ever tasting of death? And that there is no place written anywhere in the bible that say that we do go to heaven, as soon as we die?

Oh, I would probably ask you where you think we go considering Jesus swallowed and conquered death with His sacrifice. And than I would quote:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

and Rev 4:4 (considering you are a mid-tribber, hard for you to refute) Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

I've never seen anyone change their rapture view yet through reading one of these threads, no matter how many passages are bantered back and forth, so quoting scripture back and forth is kind of the equivalent of coffee and Bibles at dawn. . .

Yes I agree. We are a pretty stubborn group aren't we? LOL

[Murse32]

I have had many a discussion about 2 Corinthians 5:8 and there is nothing in that verse that tells us that when we die we will go straight to heaven.

What the verse says is that we WOULD "WILLING RATHER BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD". It does not say that we "WILL BE" absent from the body and present with the Lord when we die. It simply says that we would rather be in that condition. So where in this verse does it say that when we die we will be absent from the body?

Yes I am a mid tribber and I spent seven years studying the book of Revelation. Because of my studies I have come to the conclusion that "If it is not written in the bible it does not exist" and that my brother is how I live.

Well, first and foremost, time you have spent doesn't necessarily mean it's always going to be correct. I have spent 10 years, yet you don't agree with everything I have said. This is acceptable to me though. I don't care how long you have been studying, someone brand new in Christ could always have an enlightenment with scripture and share.

With that said, as interesting as your points may be, I believe that you have contradicted yourself though. You say that if it isn't written in the bible, it does not exist. That is fine, but with the following ideas that you have, they too are not written in the bible. It may not say, We go straight to heaven when we die...true. But, it does not say we tarry here on earth either. This is one of those "gray" areas I always speak of. It's one of those things you have to figure out what the author is saying. Our bible can not possibly contain EVERYTHING to answer every question we've ever had. We do in fact though, have the necessities we need.

First of all there is no where in the bible that tells us who these elders are. They could be men and they could be angels. Many speculate that because there are twenty four elders that twelve are the sons of Israel and twelve are the disciples of Christ. But Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Dan were cursed by their father because of the condition of their heart and only the death of Joseph is recorded in the bible and the bible doesn't say he went to heaven. Up until Abraham, according to scripture not one single man had been considered Righteous. So where is the scriptural proof that the twenty four elders are men who have been redeemed from among men and what are those elders, elders of?

You are correct once again, the bible does not clearly state these things. I will admit though, I used to have a hard time with this verse. for this fact. It is John who is called up, seems to me, He would have recognized himself on the thrones and maybe spoke of it...but than it hit me, 1st, John is seeing the future...and 2nd, God told him what to write...it may have not been important to know WHO was sitting on the thrones...may have sounded to arrogant and could have caused tension to those in those days. This we do know. According to scripture, we see the saints receiving white robes...the same wore by these elders (Rev 6:11, rev 7:9, rev 7:13). We also know the saints receive a crown (Rev 3:11, 2 Tim 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:4). Now, we could also speculate that the angels wear the same, but the fact is, these elders and on thrones. Thrones have a symbolic meaning...they are symbolic for a higher position and judgement. Let's take that and compare it to Jesus' words.

Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them,

[Murse32]

Hey Murse, what would you say if I told you that nobody has ever gone to heaven except those who have been taken without ever tasting of death? And that there is no place written anywhere in the bible that say that we do go to heaven, as soon as we die?

Oh, I would probably ask you where you think we go considering Jesus swallowed and conquered death with His sacrifice. And than I would quote:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

and Rev 4:4 (considering you are a mid-tribber, hard for you to refute) Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

I've never seen anyone change their rapture view yet through reading one of these threads, no matter how many passages are bantered back and forth, so quoting scripture back and forth is kind of the equivalent of coffee and Bibles at dawn. . .

Yes I agree. We are a pretty stubborn group aren't we? LOL

Stubborn but on fire for Christ and the truth. We may not agree on all things, but I do respect how you stand up for what you believe. If you fight this hard for the gospel as you do something not even close to being as important as a rapture...you are a wonderful asset to the body of Christ and I'm proud to call you my brother.

[Massorite]

Hey Murse, what would you say if I told you that nobody has ever gone to heaven except those who have been taken without ever tasting of death? And that there is no place written anywhere in the bible that say that we do go to heaven, as soon as we die?

Oh, I would probably ask you where you think we go considering Jesus swallowed and conquered death with His sacrifice. And than I would quote:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

and Rev 4:4 (considering you are a mid-tribber, hard for you to refute) Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

I've never seen anyone change their rapture view yet through reading one of these threads, no matter how many passages are bantered back and forth, so quoting scripture back and forth is kind of the equivalent of coffee and Bibles at dawn. . .

Yes I agree. We are a pretty stubborn group aren't we? LOL

Stubborn but on fire for Christ and the truth. We may not agree on all things, but I do respect how you stand up for what you believe. If you fight this hard for the gospel as you do something not even close to being as important as a rapture...you are a wonderful asset to the body of Christ and I'm proud to call you my brother.

Thankyou again my brother and the same to you.

[hayahtowb]

So you are telling me that Jesus teaches that there is not resurrection of the just, that the saints do not inherit immortal bodies and that there is no 2nd coming? Is that what you are really saying?

Christ teaches that all creation will be judged, and the secound coming (there is no rapture) is just the start.

We also learn ~Ezekiel 18.4~ that our very souls belong to Him, then at the death of the flesh, no one goes anywhere except back to Him ~Ecclesiastes 12.7~, it's all part of His will.

He dosn't need a regrouping of any kind, or a time-line of 7 years or three and one half, (check out the 5 months in Revelations 9.5), it's all His, He even shortens time in: Matthew 24.22 and when it's right, we'll all know (remember the melted meat and burning bone we talked about?) !

Christ dosn't teach a rapture.

[Massorite]

So you are telling me that Jesus teaches that there is not resurrection of the just, that the saints do not inherit immortal bodies and that there is no 2nd coming? Is that what you are really saying?

Christ teaches that all creation will be judged, and the second coming (there is no rapture) is just the start.

We also learn ~Ezekiel 18.4~ that our very souls belong to Him, then at the death of the flesh, no one goes anywhere except back to Him ~Ecclesiastes 12.7~, it's all part of His will.

He doesn't need a regrouping of any kind, or a time-line of 7 years or three and one half, (check out the 5 months in Revelations 9.5), it's all His, He even shortens time in: Matthew 24.22 and when it's right, we'll all know (remember the melted meat and burning bone we talked about?) !

Christ doesn't teach a rapture.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not talk about the soul. We have three sections just like God has three sections. God has the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We have the body, the spirit as in the breath of life which animates or gives the body power to live and the soul.

In the parable about the rich man and Lazarus we know that the rich man had a tongue to speak to Abraham with and eye balls to see Abraham with. Not only was he able to see and talk but he could feel the pain of torment on his body.

If what Ecclesiastes 12:7 is true and the rich man's body turned back to the dust that it came from and the spirit went back to God where it came from, what was the rich man doing with eye balls to see with and a tongue to talk with? Better yet how could the rich man even see Abraham and Lazarus if their bodies had turned back to the dust?

The answer is that it was the soul. It was the rich mans soul that was in torments. It was Abraham's soul that was talking to the rich man and it was Lazarus's soul the was resting in the bosom of Abraham.

The bible doesn't say one single word about what happens to the soul after we die. Salvation is not about the body nor is it about the spirit/breath of life that goes back to God where it came from when we die, salvation is all about the soul which lives on for ever in torment or bliss. OUR SOUL DOES NOT GO BACK TO GOD WHEN WE DIE and you have misrepresented Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Even though God doesn't,t need a time line of 7 or 3 1/2 years He has decided that WE NEED a time line of 7 or 3 1/2 years which is why He put them in His word to us so we can read and understand and look forward to the fulfillment of these time lines.

[improved]

I think the rapture, and really most-to-all of Eschatology, is the least important of all teachings... sorry to everyone who really gets off on it. I personally don't believe in the "Rapture", and as far as I understand, neither did the original Church. They were much more effectinve than the 21st Century Church. Maye we should learn a lesson.

[Ovedya]

I think the rapture, and really most-to-all of Eschatology, is the least important of all teachings... sorry to everyone who really gets off on it. I personally don't believe in the "Rapture", and as far as I understand, neither did the original Church. They were much more effectinve than the 21st Century Church. Maye we should learn a lesson.

Yeah...right. The first century church didn't at all believe in resurrection.

[OneLight]

I think the rapture, and really most-to-all of Eschatology, is the least important of all teachings... sorry to everyone who really gets off on it. I personally don't believe in the "Rapture", and as far as I understand, neither did the original Church. They were much more effectinve than the 21st Century Church. Maye we should learn a lesson.

How do you read this verse?

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Sounds like what we today call the rapture to me ... which, by the way, was spoken by Paul.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think the rapture, and really most-to-all of Eschatology, is the least important of all teachings... sorry to everyone who really gets off on it. I personally don't believe in the "Rapture", and as far as I understand, neither did the original Church. They were much more effectinve than the 21st Century Church. Maye we should learn a lesson.

1/3 of the Scriptures is Bible prophecy particularly as it relates to the end-times. If God invested that much of his Word on the subject, it would seem fairly important biblical subject matter. I don't think we should rip each other to shreds over the rapture issue, but eschatology is a very important part of the Word of God.