Overcome with awareness of people's eternal destination....

[carlos123]

I feel the comment you made is so judgemental to use the term "most" who "profess" to be Christians... You must have much pain and discouragement.

I hope that God helps you with your bitterness towards organized religion and the belief that people who enjoy organized religion are somehow not worthy. We know so many people who are good Christians and enjoy their church experience and who do go 'out into the world' and witness to those who are unbelievers. I hope your endeavor to reach unbelievers is successful.

Hi Dave,

I am not sure what comment you refer to that is so judgemental....if I was indeed judgmental in something I said in a way that would not please God (there is a difference between judging so as to rightly divide what is true and not true and judging to condemn only) I am most sincerely sorry. I have been known to have that tendency in the past and perhaps I am engaging in that again though I do not believe I am.

In my 50 years of life I have had a whole heck of a lot of contact with a whole heck of a lot of persons who profess to be Christians. A lot. I became a Christian in 1978. So for close to 28 years or thereabouts (with the exception of a few years when I fell away from God and some other bouts of more limited backslidding) I have had lots and lots of exposure for what passes for Church in many, many Sunday buildings. And what I have seen ain't it.

You know the old saying that one is not a Christian just because they enter a Sunday Church building? Well...I would like to add to that saying..."One is not a disciple of Jesus Christ type of Christian just because one faithfully gets together with a Church that meets in a building on Sunday.".

A disciple being a Christian and a Christian being a disciple. The idea that one can be a Christian without being a disciple being a "modern" concoction of organized religion that is completely unscriptural. You know...the thought that we can accept Jesus "into our heart" as our Saviour and leave the Lord part for later.

So what I am saying is based on my experience. No less than my experience and no more that such.

Now I realize that my experience is not indicative of every single Church out there. I'd be a fool to think it is. There are exceptions. Perhaps even my whole experience has been twisted in some way so that what I think I see is not really there at all. The Lord has shown that to be the case on several occasions in my life and it would not surprise me to realize that this may also be true of me in the present analysis (or judgement if you will) of modern day North American churchianity.

But...like you and everyone else here Dave...I must follow my conscience before God and speak the truth as I see it and have experienced it and the truth ain't pretty. It ain't pretty at all. And I, along with many others all over the place see the same sorts of things I have seen and are looking to do something about it.

Even polls by well recognized evangelical pollsters tell us that the existing practice of Church in North America (and Europe and elsewhere) is dying a slow death.

More people profess to be Christians today than at any time in history. Yet the truth is that the term "Christian" has become so watered down as to mean little today and most certainly not what it meant in New Testament times.

I didn't start this thread to debate the finer merits of my views. They are what they are. And your views are undoubtedly what they are too.

I started this thread to see if the Lord might lead some others to join me in writing some tracks. I don't personally need tracks to witness to people. But they would help and allow me to reach more, more easily. I don't have time to befriend and get involved in the life of every single unbeliever that I might meet...though I might want to. Nor do I often have much time to say much to many people that I could very well leave with a small but effective track.

If you want to join me in writing tracks Dave...great. Let's have at it. If not...that's okay. You must follow God in whatever way you understand that to be. And so must I.

I didn't come here to have my views dissected as I am sure you don't either. It's not that I am unwilling to have my views dissected. My views get dissected all over the place by all manner of persons I am in contact with. Thankfully most Christians that I have met online have been a tremendous blessing to me. Not all but most.

It's when I make contact with them outside the boundaries of organized Churchianity that the real Christ begins to shine out of His Body.

And for that I am extremely thankful.

But...I must speak the truth as I see it. If that rubs some the wrong way...so be it. It's a truth based on my experience. An experience which may not entirely reflect truth regarding the Church of North America as a whole. I realize that. But until the Lord shows me a different truth to re-orient my thinking...I must stick to what I know to be true in my experience and by what the Word says.

I have not explained a tenth of my bad experiences with churchians (persons who cling to the notion that Church is all about going to a building on Sundays). Perhaps not even a hundredth. Yes...that has left a hard edge on me. I've had it with Sunday building anything. If I never step inside another Sunday building the rest of my life it will be just fine with me.

Get me a real Christian who recognizes the One Body that we are, who considers himself or herself a disciple (i.e. a Christian) and not a denominationalist (i.e. Baptist, Presbyterian, Assemblies of God, whatever), who truly follows the Lord in every day life among the people of the world...and I will move heaven and Earth to be with such a Christian if I can.

I know you will take to mean that I think there are no true Christians among denominational Church structures but that's not what I am saying. It's just that true Christians of the kind I am speaking about have been difficult for me to find. Most times...when I have even brought up the need to surrender to God through Christ with all our hearts...I get "Huh?" and blank stares as if what I am saying is a strange and odd thing.

Needless to say that in itself is a most strange thing to have occur in the midst of the Church of the Living God

Carlos

[carlos123]

I think you are quite correct actually- well-written and concise tracts may be an 'ice breaker' to talking with people, but if your light isn't shining bright your message may be lost...

Agreed. Now if you can bring yourself to think the best about me and if can think the best about you as fellow believers....would you like to join me in writing such tracks?

Carlos

[Believer1997]

Grace to you,

Furthermore for many in the Church they have no ready outlet to sharing the Gospel with others.

That's funny, because we have the exact opposite problem at my Church. There are hundreds of opportunites for folks to share the Gospel but we are having trouble gaining peoples interest.

Why not plug yourself into a local Church with a dynamic outreach?

Peace,

Dave

What I meant by a ready outlet Dave is that many Christians associate with Christians, hang out with Christians...not just in real life, but on internet forums such as this one, worship only with Christians, go to potlucks only with Christians...and so forth.

Most Christians don't do anything to get the Gospel out.

Leaving tracks around is one of the easiest things to do. It may help one's that don't have a ready outlet to share with unbelievers a way to start doing that.

I mean anyone that wants to can join me in hanging out on the trolleys and buses of San Diego or otherwise making contact with unbelievers. Maybe we should start a trolley ministry . But it's far easier to get others to join me in writing tracks and getting them out.

Better yet any Christians in San Diego want to make their homes available for get togethers that we could invite unbelievers to? Trouble is most persons who profess to be Christians are more interested in pursuing the good life for themselves and wouldn't want the first thing to do with anything that spills out of our church buildings and into real life.

Regarding what you said about a lack of interest....may I suggest that the problem is one of a lack of true faith in the Gospel. There are many folks, church going folks, who are not even Christians. The Gospel has been watered down to this feel good, 4 steps to the great plan God has for your life, say a prayer thing that has resulted in tons of false conversions.

2 Cor 4:12

It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken."With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

If we don't speak there is something lacking in our faith. If we have faith as we should...we will speak. Plain and simple.

If people aren't speaking...it's because there is something wrong in their belief.

I'm not saying that everyone who does not open their mouth and say "Jesus" in the presence of unbelievers is an unbeliever. But if we, as professing Christians, don't do even that little there is something wrong.

As for my lack of going to a regular Sunday church building...it would take longer than I have the inclination to do on this thread to explain my reasons for that. Suffice it to say that I get daily fellowship on the front lines with many, many Christians. Why do I need to go sit for two hours in some building with a steeple on it to have someone else tell me what the Bible says?

Please don't make assumptions about some supposed problem on my part with submission or that I am anti-authority. There is something wrong with the practice of church in North America and I want no part of it.

But having said all that...my goal with this thread is not to discuss what is wrong with the practice of church, why I do what I do, or any other such a thing.

It is simply to find others on whose hearts the Lord might be laying the things I propose. To see if the Lord wants me to do this with others in the Body.

If not...that's cool. It's either not the right timing for me and/or others, not God's will for me to do this with others, or otherwise. I have this post on another Christian forums as well. If the Lord wills it may He lay it on the hearts of some to join me in this endeavour.

Carlos

PS. Oh I forgot to add...if anyone knows some Christians who are doing open air preaching on the streets of San Diego...I am trying to find some that I can hang out with and learn from.

Carlos,

You responded to my comments but you said Dave. I don't know what he wrote, but I'm bolding the comments I thought were judgemental. And I think that perhaps your feelings have been hurt in Church and perhaps that is why you feel so.

[carlos123]

Hi there Charitow (sounds like you are towing some Charity behind you or something ),

More comments interspersed between yours...

my question is: how effective are tracts really in spreading the Gospel and reaching the lost? it may be one of the easiest things for us to do, but it's also the easiest way some people can pat themselves on the back for "spreading the Word" when they've actually done nothing of the sort. but they've 'done their part' and so do nothing more.

Well if they are so easy to give out...why aren't we all given them out??

Have you ever handed out tracks to a cashier at a store you are well known at?

How about to a waitress at your favorite restaurant (such that you will from then on have to let your tipping reflect Christlike charity)?

Leaving tracks in an incognito fashion like some kind of secret agent hiding behind a trench coat is one thing. That's easy. Couldn't be easier.

But giving out tracks personally is another matter entirely.

It requires one to stand up for Christ and associate themselves with Him in a very visible way.

That takes courage in the Lord. Boldness in the Lord. And a whole host of other things that will help us all be more the Christians that the Lord meant for us to be.

So the first advantage of tracks is the effect that it has on our lives. A most wonderful effect.

Secondly, but certainly no less important, tracks may indeed be used in the hands of the Lord to soften someone's heart to the Gospel.

I can give someone a track when I have no time to talk with them.

I can give someone a track who has no time to talk with me but who might readily accept something to read later.

I can leave a track in bathroom stalls, on top of payphones, on bus seats, all over with a toll free number they can call to contact me or others doing this with me for follow up.

I can do all kinds of things with tracks that take very little time and which add to my effectiveness in Christ.

There is no question in view of the above that distributing tracks is one more thing that can help us be more effective.

Not at the expense of personal relationship where we can but in addition to it.

Oh...should anyone become a Christian through our efforts...getting them to start handing out tracks is also a most wonderful way to help them stay on fire for God

let your light so shine.... not hand out a shiny tract.

Quite true but whoever said it's either, or? It's both. We can give out tracks while letting our light shine. Not in place of it. Not to mention that with some (thank you Dave for correcting my use of the word "most") Christians their light never shines further than it does during their Sunday building going.

How are people supposed to see the light in our lives? Relationships yes. But for others who may never see us again? How? A track might do the trick there.

now, i do think there are times tracts can be used with purpose--but rarely by themselves. we need to give of ourselves first. when we shine our light, then it's easier for someone to read the tract and take an interest in it.

In general I agree with you but tell me something...how am I supposed to let my light shine making it easier for someone to receive a track from me...if I don't even have a chance to hardly say hi to someone? How are they going to know that I have a halo around my head as a Christian if I don't even let on that I am a Christian in some way...perhaps through a track?

I meet people on buses and trolleys all the time that I have wonderful conversations with. Such conversations do not always give me an opportunity to get into the details of justification, propitiation, dying to self, and cross bearing with those I am talking to. Having a track would be a wonderful addition to my ability to engage strangers in conversation. I suspect it might also be a wonderful addition to most Christians too.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Carlos,

You responded to my comments but you said Dave. I don't know what he wrote, but I'm bolding the comments I thought were judgemental. And I think that perhaps your feelings have been hurt in Church and perhaps that is why you feel so.

Hmmm...sorry Believer1997. I get so confused about who is who sometimes. I am in contact with so many over the Internet that I start getting confused in my rush to respond to all. It's like I am on the edge of not being able to physically and practically respond in an adequate way to everyone I might want to respond to.

Reading over what you highlighted I believe you are correct to some degree in what I said. That it was judgemental in a way that does not please God.

I do sincerly and honestly apologize for my judgementalism in what I said. It's that old me popping out again. No excuse.

I need to be much more careful in my use of the word "most" and instead start using the word "some" much more often. More importantly I need to change my inner perspective on "most" and start seeing things from the perspective of "some" more.

To be sure there are some things that I have said that apply to "most" but I need to be very careful that I don't step on brothers and sisters in Christ who are truly doing what the Lord would have them do to whatever degree they know. Yes...they might be able to do things better just as I can but that does not give me the right to slam them or otherwise cast suspicious doubt on what they are doing in good conscience before the Lord.

Hmmm.......

Thank God for correction through the Body!!

Do you realize that I could attend church building services for years and never even come close to receiving this type of correction??

What does that say about the practice of Sunday church going?

Just something to ponder further.

Thanks Believer1997...whatever your real name is! My apologies to anyone else I have mixed up...name wise.

Carlos

[Trusting Jesus]

Hi Carlos,

Here's a site for the Gospel Tract Society: http://www.gospeltractsociety.org/

If you have a heart to serve God will show you how and where to use your abilities.

<>< ><>

Nathele

[carlos123]

Hi Carlos,

Here's a site for the Gospel Tract Society: http://www.gospeltractsociety.org/

If you have a heart to serve God will show you how and where to use your abilities.

<>< ><>

Nathele

Thanks for the link Nathele. Appreciate it. Looks like some good stuff. Even though I have something a bit different in mind.

My desire is to create tracks with other Christians in the Body and to make those tracts available for free at no charge. Where one's can download the tracks off the internet and print them out themselves. As many as they want.

Also...to create the tracks in a sort of open source collaboration way. Where a number would work together to produce whatever the Lord leads us to produce.

This track thing is just one of several things I hope to be working on. Another one that I am spening a lot of time on is creating a new type of Christian forum that is not at present available anywhere on the Internet.

Anyway thanks again but I will continue waiting on the Lord to lead me to some that might want to work together on what is on my heart to do. If it is His will to do it.

Carlos

[Believer1997]

That tract site looked really good. If you have PhotoShop or some other graphics program you could create your own and print as many as you want and just hand them out. I would consider that site though! Very well written.

[carlos123]

That tract site looked really good. If you have PhotoShop or some other graphics program you could create your own and print as many as you want and just hand them out. I would consider that site though! Very well written.

Howdy Believer1997.

Yes the site looks real good. They've been doing what they have been doing since something like 1927. It better look good by now .

Yes I have GIMP (a Linux alternative to Photoshop). Yes...I can print my own tracks. Yes...I can write my own tracks. And yes...I can read the Bible by myself and feed my mouth by myself and worship by myself and let's see....pray by myself and do any number of other things. By myself.

All well and good but the Lord created the Body to work together. So....I am looking for brothers and sisters in the Body who might be willing to join me in creating tracks freely, to give away freely, to use freely such that we might be able to encourage each other by what the Lord does through us...as we join together to get His Word out more.

You game for that?

Anybody?

That's all I am asking. Forgive me but I am not interested in discussing my motives, receiving advice about how I can do other than what He is laying on my heart to do, dissecting whether tracks are efficient to use, why or why not I want to use what already exists, etc. I just want to know if anyone wants to join me in creating tracks together and to freely distribute them and make them available. That's all I started this thread for.

I asked somewhere else a while back if there were any Christians willing to join me in creating free music for the Body at no cost. Made available to the Body freely without concern for making money. Same thing.

Freely we have been given. Freely give. That sort of thing.

I guess no one here is willing to join me in creating tracks so I think this thread is more or less done at this point. Unless anyone has any questions about how such a thing might work in case I would be happy to continue discussing.

But as much as I appreciate the link to a tract site, the Lord having shown me where I was being judgmental (thank you!), and other such things....I just want to know if anyone else from this forum has it on their heart to create tracks with me. That's the topic. That's all.

Thanks.

Carlos

[Believer1997]

That tract site looked really good. If you have PhotoShop or some other graphics program you could create your own and print as many as you want and just hand them out. I would consider that site though! Very well written.

Howdy Believer1997.

Yes the site looks real good. They've been doing what they have been doing since something like 1927. It better look good by now .

Yes I have GIMP (a Linux alternative to Photoshop). Yes...I can print my own tracks. Yes...I can write my own tracks. And yes...I can read the Bible by myself and feed my mouth by myself and worship by myself and let's see....pray by myself and do any number of other things. By myself.

All well and good but the Lord created the Body to work together. So....I am looking for brothers and sisters in the Body who might be willing to join me in creating tracks freely, to give away freely, to use freely such that we might be able to encourage each other by what the Lord does through us...as we join together to get His Word out more.

You game for that?

Anybody?

That's all I am asking. Forgive me but I am not interested in discussing my motives, receiving advice about how I can do other than what He is laying on my heart to do, dissecting whether tracks are efficient to use, why or why not I want to use what already exists, etc. I just want to know if anyone wants to join me in creating tracks together and to freely distribute them and make them available. That's all I started this thread for.

I asked somewhere else a while back if there were any Christians willing to join me in creating free music for the Body at no cost. Made available to the Body freely without concern for making money. Same thing.

Freely we have been given. Freely give. That sort of thing.

I guess no one here is willing to join me in creating tracks so I think this thread is more or less done at this point. Unless anyone has any questions about how such a thing might work in case I would be happy to continue discussing.

But as much as I appreciate the link to a tract site, the Lord having shown me where I was being judgmental (thank you!), and other such things....I just want to know if anyone else from this forum has it on their heart to create tracks with me. That's the topic. That's all.

Thanks.

Carlos

Well Carlos,

If something is already written, concise and available - and it says all the things that need to be conveyed. I cannot imagine why you'd re-invent the wheel by starting your own authorship of tracts. But I suppose you have your reasons. I notice that you live in San Diego - I live on the other side of the country so obviously I cannot stand there with you while you hand out tracts. And frankly Carlos - you seem angry, irritated and bitter. That may be why you are meeting resistance. I will pray for you.