Homosexuality and evolution

[Guest shiloh357]

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Its not a case of "asking" Jesus to cure you. It's a matter of allowing him to. The blood of Jesus is amazing in what it can do and its power to cleanse from every sin.

And you have studies? Serious, objective evidence? Sited sources?

What I have is the evidence of changed lives. Ther are many former homosexuals who testify of how Jesus redeemed them from the spiritual bondage of sin, partcularly homsexuality. One famous indivdual is Dennis Jourgensen, a popular Praise and worship leader. Jesus has cured people of their addictions to porn, alchohol, drugs, sex, and other types of sins as well.

A person unwilling to be convinced will not be convinced no matter what evidence is presented. I point you to the cross, I can point you to the empty tomb in Jerusalem, and I can tell you what Jesus has done me and others, but rest of it is up to you. I cannot prove God's existence, I can simply testify of what I know to be true, and if you reject God's offer of salvation, then you alone bear the consequence of that decision. God does not hold me responsible for your decision. I am only responsible to Him for telling you the truth.

QUOTE

Sexualty it natural. Lust is a sin and being a sin, we have a choice not to participate in it. Again, it is a matter of allowing Christ to in us and through us. The closer we are to him, the less prone we are to sinning. When you fill your life with Jesus, there isn't much room for other harmful distractions that lead you down the road to immorality.

How do you define lust? I define it as "the application of sexuality."

You have a rather simplistic, inaccurate definition of lust. The correct definition of lust is that it is a consuming, unbridled desire and when it is expressed in sexual terms, it is the primary component in sex addictions. It has destroyed families and is destructive to the mind and the spirit.

The describes the process this way:

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:14-15).

Lust really is a form of slavery because you can never satisfy it. People who are former porn addicts who have come to Christ tell stories of how they would have to constantly graduate to harder and harder pornography to feed their lust. Lust is destructive. Former addicts also tell of losing their jobs and their marriages over their insatiable appetites.

QUOTE

Actually, the Bible is not written by men. God wrote it. Men were simply His instruments for putting into writing. God wrote it through His apostles and prophets. It a true and infallible word, whether you make room for that or not.

Again, source for this claim? Historical research? Archeological investigation? You know what would be great evidence that God wrote a holy book? There only being one religion in the world.

I doubt that would convince you of anything.

The problem with your rationale is that God has never offered man a religion in the first place. All religions are based on human effort, rituals, self-abuse, personal piety, saying enough prayers, reaching the next level of enlightenment, seeking the "divine" within one's self, and so on.

In short, religion is wholly dependent on man. Religion is all about finding "the path to God." Many see all religions as walking down different paths to the same destination.

The problem with that is that there is no path to God. No one can work hard enough to find God. A path is something you travel down under your own strength to reach an intended destination. Man cannot work his way to God. That path simply doesn't exist.

Religion is all about man trying to be good enough to garner favor from God, but the problem is that God isn't interested in man performing well enough for him. He can't possibly do that any way. God has created people so that they can have a relationship with him. Man has rejected God and severed the relationship. God's program is all about restoring people unto Himself. Religion is a manmade entity.

God has provided all the evidence you need. He even created an entire universe to showcase his existence. He has made you in His image. You are His creation and He knew you before you were even born. God knows all that is can or will be.

[ParanoidAndroid]

God never refers to anything innate in creation as sinful. The sexul urge is never referred to by God as sinful. When God calls something sin, it falls to reason that it is something about which we have a choice and not an innate, uncontrollable urge.

Secondly, there are testimonies of former homosexuals who have become Christians and have been completely delivered.

Here's a challenge for you, Shiloh - find me a single verse in scripture where it states that having homosexual feelings is sinful! To the best of my knowledge, the Bible only ever refers to homosexuality in terms of the ACTS THEMSELVES, not any urges or feelings behind it. I only ask because you seem to be basing your argument on the understanding that the heterosexual urge is never referred to as "sinful" but homosexuality is - but that would only stand true if God specifically refers to the homosexual urge as sinful, no?

Oh, for the record, there are also testimonies of homosexuals who have become Christians and still have their thoughts and feelings but because of their love for God choose not to act on them.

[Guest shiloh357]

Here's a challenge for you, Shiloh - find me a single verse in scripture where it states that having homosexual feelings is sinful!

I already have. Tell me this... Would it be sinful if I hated you so much I wanted to kill you? If for some wierd reason I was sitting here with murderous feelings toward you even to the point where I was actually imagining how I would carry out the deed, would that be a sin?

Or in another context... Let's say you are married, but I am sitting around fantasizing how I am going to seduce your wife, and how I will get her to leave you for me, and I am sitting around thinking of all the sexual escapades I would have with your wife. Would that be a sin?

In Matt. 5:27,28, Jesus establishes a principle for understanding sin, that had been ignored by the religious leaders of that day. They had perverted the law in order to make room for their transgression of it. Jesus was correcting that perversion. Jesus identifies both adultery as a sin that begin in the heart. Sin always begins in the heart and you have already given in to temptation when you entertain the feelings brought on by temptation. It is not a sin to be tempted, but it is a sin to entertain it. If God calls something a sin, he includes any desires that would lead us to commit such a sin.

Jesus establishes the truth that we should not only avoid committing the sin in the flesh, but that there should also not be anything in our hearts prompting us on to commit the sin, in the first place. That is where holiness in our practical day-to-day lives begins.

The same principle holds true for homosexuality. Remember what I said earlier which you agreed with totally? The commandments are behavioral frames of reference. I do not need a verse that says, "homosexual feelings are a sin." All I have to do is look at how God deals with other sins and then I extrapolate from God does address to understand how to deal with what is not directly addressed.

It is just as sinful to WANT to murder as it is to murder. It is just as sinful to WANT to commit adultery as it is to commit the act of adultery. It is just as sinful to WANT to commit homosexual acts as it is to commit homosexual acts.

Oh, for the record, there are also testimonies of homosexuals who have become Christians and still have their thoughts and feelings but because of their love for God choose not to act on them.

That does not make the feelings any less sinful. Sinful feelings are not suddenly sanitized when someone becomes a Christian. They are still in the process of full deliverance, which is what they need. The fact remains that God can and does deliver completely. If a person chooses not to appropriate such, it will be something he and God will have to deal with.

[MorningGlory]

Hunter that sounds like a really scary movie.... ugh. I don't think homosexuality and evolution have anything to do with each other - I just think that we are exposed to it more and more than ever because people are coming .. out.... of wherever they've been. I do not think the survival of the species is in danger...

On a more serious note. Homosexual behavior is a choice....

I always have a problem with this approach. Yes, homosexuals make a choice about whether to involve themselves in homosexual relationships, but I do not believe they ever made a choice to be homosexual.

In case someone wonders whether I am homosexual -- I am not. That said, I don't recall ever making the choice to be heterosexual either. I am a male who has always been attracted solely to the oposite sex. Those of you here who are heterosexual -- did you ever make the choice to be heterosexual, did you ever feel you had the potential to swing the other way? Did you ever sit down and decide whether you were going to choose to be hetero or homosexual??? Speaking for myself the answer is a resounding, "No!" I have always been heterosexual. Having an interest in same sex individuals has never been an option for me, it is not part of my nature.

You have a valid point there, Hitchey, because I don't remember choosing to heterosexual either. I just am. I'm wondering if homosexuals are truly born that way or, at least in some cases, childhood experiences influence their sexual orientation. I know one gay woman who was molested for years while she was growing up. She has a deep distrust of men...cause and effect? I think so. But that doesn't account for the many, many gay people who have normal relationships with both parents and were not molested by anyone. Only God knows the answer to this one.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I already have. Tell me this... Would it be sinful if I hated you so much I wanted to kill you? If for some wierd reason I was sitting here with murderous feelings toward you even to the point where I was actually imagining how I would carry out the deed, would that be a sin?

Or in another context... Let's say you are married, but I am sitting around fantasizing how I am going to seduce your wife, and how I will get her to leave you for me, and I am sitting around thinking of all the sexual escapades I would have with your wife. Would that be a sin?

In Matt. 5:27,28, Jesus establishes a principle for understanding sin, that had been ignored by the religious leaders of that day. They had perverted the law in order to make room for their transgression of it. Jesus was correcting that perversion. Jesus identifies both adultery as a sin that begin in the heart. Sin always begins in the heart and you have already given in to temptation when you entertain the feelings brought on by temptation. It is not a sin to be tempted, but it is a sin to entertain it. If God calls something a sin, he includes any desires that would lead us to commit such a sin.

Jesus establishes the truth that we should not only avoid committing the sin in the flesh, but that there should also not be anything in our hearts prompting us on to commit the sin, in the first place. That is where holiness in our practical day-to-day lives begins.

The same principle holds true for homosexuality. Remember what I said earlier which you agreed with totally? The commandments are behavioral frames of reference. I do not need a verse that says, "homosexual feelings are a sin." All I have to do is look at how God deals with other sins and then I extrapolate from God does address to understand how to deal with what is not directly addressed.

It is just as sinful to WANT to murder as it is to murder. It is just as sinful to WANT to commit adultery as it is to commit the act of adultery. It is just as sinful to WANT to commit homosexual acts as it is to commit homosexual acts.

Sorry for not responding quicker, I've been working the past couple of days

I get the impression then that you think homosexuals sit around fantasising about how they want to commit homosexual acts. In this sense, whether they commit those acts or not, you are right - they have committed sexual immorality in their hearts.

But is it true that homosexuals are so centred on their own sexuality, whether they act on it or not? As a heterosexual, I do not constantly dwell on thoughts of premarital sex. I do not sit and fantasise about how I might find a way to release my sexual urges in the arms of another person. If I did, I would be as guilty of sin in this respect as anyone else (though I do not claim to be sinless in this regard - I know I have probably thought my way into sin from time to time). Why do you expect it to be any different with homosexuality?

Is it not possible for homosexuals to have those feelings (just like I have heterosexual feelings) but choose not to act on those (just as I choose not to act on mine)? To combat this, you have nothing but your own opinion that homosexuality is an urge we should not have! You cannot produce a single reference from the Bible to back up your statement. All you have is a call to the thoughts and feelings behind the actions - which is fair enough, but it makes the assumption that gays continually fantasise about their sex-lives even if they choose to live celibate lives for Christ (while at the same time making the assertion that heterosexuals will not do such).

Can you not see how contradictory such a view is? Perhaps even hypocritical?

That does not make the feelings any less sinful. Sinful feelings are not suddenly sanitized when someone becomes a Christian. They are still in the process of full deliverance, which is what they need. The fact remains that God can and does deliver completely. If a person chooses not to appropriate such, it will be something he and God will have to deal with.

Read above - homosexual feelings are not addressed by scripture, only the action. And as you say, if someone continually dwells on such feelings they have as much as committed adultery in their hearts. But you seem to think that it is possible for a heterosexual to not dwell on those thoughts while at the same time stating that a homosexual even admitting to such feelings is making such fantasies in their heads.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Nebula -

Hi Nebula, I was just wondering if you had had a chance to read through my response on this thread to you about the contextual support of homosexuality being discussed in the same form as idol worship from Leviticus 18 and 20. I made a response to you on just that subject about a week ago, and have not yet heard back from you. Any thoughts you may like to add to this outline would be greatly appreciated.

You can find my commentary on the context of those two chapters back at the top of page 17 (post #161 to be exact). I would appreciate a response, thank you

~ PA

[Guest shiloh357]

I get the impression then that you think homosexuals sit around fantasising about how they want to commit homosexual acts.

No, I don't think that. You are assigning values to my statements that I neither expressed or hinted at. A rather fraudulent debate tactic on your part. I have known and worked with quite a few of them and am well aware of the fact that they think about other things too.

But is it true that homosexuals are so centred on their own sexuality, whether they act on it or not?

I never said they were.

Why do you expect it to be any different with homosexuality?

Why do you insist on assigning motives to me that never expressed?

Is it not possible for homosexuals to have those feelings (just like I have heterosexual feelings) but choose not to act on those (just as I choose not to act on mine)?

That doesn't change the fact that it is sin to desire homosexual relations at all, whether your life is centered on them or not.

To combat this, you have nothing but your own opinion that homosexuality is an urge we should not have! You cannot produce a single reference from the Bible to back up your statement. All you have is a call to the thoughts and feelings behind the actions - which is fair enough, but it makes the assumption that gays continually fantasise about their sex-lives even if they choose to live celibate lives for Christ (while at the same time making the assertion that heterosexuals will not do such).

Can you not see how contradictory such a view is? Perhaps even hypocritical?

What I see is a faulty argument based on false assumptions. Homosexuality is not an "urge" and no amount of time you spend calling it an "urge" will change that.

I have already produced enough Scripture to back up the fact that just like other sins, homosexuality begins the heart. Whether a person is consumed with it day and night is irrelevant and has nothing do with my position. The fact is, that sin no matter what sin you are talking about, homosexuality or adultery, murder or thievery, all begins in the heart. Sin is conceived in the heart. Jesus made that point very clear, like it or not.

Read above - homosexual feelings are not addressed by scripture, only the action.

The principle is laid out in scripture that all sinful feelings begin in the heart.

And as you say, if someone continually dwells on such feelings they have as much as committed adultery in their hearts. But you seem to think that it is possible for a heterosexual to not dwell on those thoughts while at the same time stating that a homosexual even admitting to such feelings is making such fantasies in their heads.

No, that is not what I said.

Any time you entertain temptation in heart and mind, you are committing sin. It is not a sin to be tempted. It is not sin for a sinful thought to pop into your head. The sin is when you toy with it, consider it, fanatasize it and act it out in your mind.

It is not a sin to recognize a beautiful woman. It is a sin to undress her with your eyes or to imagine her in an immoral situation with yourself.

God created humans to be sexual creatures and the sexual urge or desire is not in and of itself sinful. Any perversion of it, is. Homsexuality is a perversion of that urge as much as adultery or other kinds of fornication are.

Homosexuals need deliverance, not someone to run interference and helping them to make excuses for their sin. Homosexuality is a sin whether it is in the heart or it is committed in the flesh.

[nebula]

I do not believe that homosexual behaviour will ever lead to the end of the species.

Animals only reproduce the natural way.

If the majority of the population were homosexual, how would the species reproduce enough members in order to survive?

[nebula]

Nebula -

Hi Nebula, I was just wondering if you had had a chance to read through my response ...

Sorry I haven't responded, but I realized the debate took a turn that would require my divesting myself into research in which I haven't been able to find the time to divest in.

My apologies if that seems rude, but that's where I'm at.

[Guest]

That said, homosexuality seems to have been very widespread in ancient Greece where it was considered normal

The Societal Rape And Seduction Of One's Youth Is Neither Normal Nor Is It Love

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 5:20

It Is A Crime Of Pure Hatred Toward The Innocence Of Trusting Children

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Proverbs 6:16-19

And Even Worst, It Is Sin Against God

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jeremiah 17:9

Leading To Eternal Death

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Proverbs 8:36

Unless One Turns

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

2 Timothy 2:25-26

And Believes

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:35-36

Love, Joe