Homosexuality and evolution

[ParanoidAndroid]

You are, in futility, trying to debate a technicality. You are arguing that since homosexual feelings are not directly addressed, then they are not sinful. The problem is that the Bible has laid out the principle that a sinful act is ALWAYS preceded by sinful desire. So since the Bible condemns the sinful act, it doesn't take much brain power to arrive at the understanding that if God condemns the ACT of homosexuality, that He would condemn the feelings and desires that lead up to the act. It is really not that hard to understand PA.

The desires that lead to sin are just as sinful as committing the act.

Cutting right down to the heart of it, this is the big issue I have with your comments. By saying this, you MUST also consider heterosexual feelings a sin. By your own admission (and I agree with you), "sinful act is always preceded by sinful desire". So therefore since God condemns the sinful act of premarital sex, then the sinful desire behind that must include heterosexuality.

You are contradicting yourself by saying that "all sins are the same" and yet holding homosexuality to a different standard than heterosexual premarital sex. With premarital sex, it is only sin if you start fantasising about it (all sin begins in the heart). But with homosexuality, it is your assertion that it is sin to even have the inkling of a feeling - regardless of whether one fantasises on such things or not. Clearly these sins are not "all the same" to you.

I am afraid I must bow out of this debate with you, Shiloh. I think we will only end up going in ever-increasing circles around each other on this one. I have laid out everything here that I need to say, and that is enough.

All the best,

~ PA

[Believer1997]

Actually, it doesn't answer all of them - but I'll find out about these fascinating animals. Blessings to you Hitchey - still praying!!

Hello Believer, I heard on the news this evening during dinner that the civil war in the Congo has claimed more than 5 million lives in the last ten years. I recall hearing some time back that people were shooting the Bonobos and using them as food. Apparently the indiginious populations who traditionally lived in the vicinity of the apes had taboos against hunting them, but with the war starvation has put pressure on the human populations to kill and eat anything to keep themselves away from death's door. The war has been cosly for the Bonobos.

It's amazing to know that they were just discovered in 1933!! Fascinating animals!

[Guest shiloh357]

Cutting right down to the heart of it, this is the big issue I have with your comments. By saying this, you MUST also consider heterosexual feelings a sin.

No, I do not. Not at all. It is a gift from God that should be embraced albeit within the limits of His prescription.

By your own admission (and I agree with you), "sinful act is always preceded by sinful desire". So therefore since God condemns the sinful act of premarital sex, then the sinful desire behind that must include heterosexuality.

No, it is the desire to engage in premarital sex that is the sinful desire. The desire to engage in sexual intercourse is programmed into man by God. It is when you see an attractive member of the opposite sex and you begin desiring sexual relations with that person outside of marriage, THAT is where the sin begins. Being physically attracted to a person is not sinful. Allowing that attraction to slide down into lust, is.

You are contradicting yourself by saying that "all sins are the same" and yet holding homosexuality to a different standard than heterosexual premarital sex.

I am not holding them to different standards. I have taken pains to point out that God hates both equally.

With premarital sex, it is only sin if you start fantasising about it (all sin begins in the heart). But with homosexuality, it is your assertion that it is sin to even have the inkling of a feeling - regardless of whether one fantasises on such things or not. Clearly these sins are not "all the same" to you.

They equally sinful. Murder and theft are not the "same" but they are both hated equally by God. Hetrosexual sins and Homosexual sins are not the "same" but they are equally sinful. One is not worse than the other. Adultery is as sinful before God as homosexuality, pedophilia, incest, beastiality and other sexual perversions.

Just an inkling of feelings to commit adultery is as sinful as committing the act. Just an "inkling" of a feeling of wanting to murder someone is just as sinful as committing murder.

Just an "inkling of a feeling" of homosexual desires is as sinful as committing the act since all sin begins in the heart.

If I were, for even 3 seconds, desire sexual relations with a married or unmarried woman, that is sin and God's book, it is no different than committing the act.

It needs to be repented of. And there are people who need to be delievered from hetrosexual sin just like there are people who need to be delievered from homosexual sin.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Being physically attracted to a person is not sinful. Allowing that attraction to slide down into lust, is.

So would you say it is impossible for a homosexual to be physically attracted to someone of the same sex while not allowing that attraction to slide down into lust???

As I said, we'll just continue to argue this in ever-increasing circles until we are both dizzy. You will somehow find a way to suggest that it is impossible for a homosexual to have such an attraction without lust (but heterosexuals can), and I will say otherwise. In the end, we both agree that the action (and the lust behind the action) are wrong in God's eyes.

All the best,

[Guest shiloh357]

So would you say it is impossible for a homosexual to be physically attracted to someone of the same sex while not allowing that attraction to slide down into lust???

It wouldn't matter. Begin attracted to a member of the opposite sex is a sin to begin with even before you get to the lust factor. It is a sin to be gay even in the heart.

As I said, we'll just continue to argue this in ever-increasing circles until we are both dizzy.

Only because you refuse to believe the Bible and are trying to get around the obvious sinfulness of homosexual feelings. You keep trying to trap me in my words, to no avail.

You will somehow find a way to suggest that it is impossible for a homosexual to have such an attraction without lust (but heterosexuals can), and I will say otherwise. In the end, we both agree that the action (and the lust behind the action) are wrong in God's eyes.

No you still continue to misrepresent my position while you skirt around the correct Christian position. The only one of the two of us taking a truly Christian stance on this issue is me.

I did not say it is impossible for the homosexual to be attracted without lust. I said that their same-sex attraction is a sin from the get-go whether they engage in lust or not.

[ParanoidAndroid]

So would you say it is impossible for a homosexual to be physically attracted to someone of the same sex while not allowing that attraction to slide down into lust???

It wouldn't matter. Begin attracted to a member of the opposite sex is a sin to begin with even before you get to the lust factor. It is a sin to be gay even in the heart.

I did not say it is impossible for the homosexual to be attracted without lust. I said that their same-sex attraction is a sin from the get-go whether they engage in lust or not.

And hence the reason why I say you are NOT treating these sins as "all the same" (to quote an earlier response of yours). It is contradictory to say that it wouldn't matter and that it is a sin to be even gay in the heart, and in the same breath say that you are treating it as the same as heterosexual sexual immorality. There is a difference - with heterosexuals, you do not include the thought/feeling, but only the actions and lusts. No such stipulation is given to homosexuals.

It is contradictory to say that they are the same, and yet put such an obvious difference on the two. A difference, I might add, that is NOT addressed in scripture - the Bible says nothing of what it is to be homosexual, it only speaks of the acts (and by association the lusts behind it).

I know I said I would not respond further, but I am just flabbergasted by the contradictions in what you write - and more pressing still, I am flabbergasted by the fact that you don't realise these contradictions.

~ Regards, PA

*P.S - that circle is getting larger every time I post, I think

P.P.S - I think you made a typo - something tells me you meant to say "member of the same sex" in your opening sentence

[Guest shiloh357]

And hence the reason why I say you are NOT treating these sins as "all the same" (to quote an earlier response of yours). It is contradictory to say that it wouldn't matter and that it is a sin to be even gay in the heart, and in the same breath say that you are treating it as the same as heterosexual sexual immorality. There is a difference - with heterosexuals, you do not include the thought/feeling, but only the actions and lusts. No such stipulation is given to homosexuals.

Wrong. Here is what I said in post #201 which you have conveniently chosen to ignore:

"Just an inkling of feelings to commit adultery is as sinful as committing the act. Just an "inkling" of a feeling of wanting to murder someone is just as sinful as committing murder.

Just an "inkling of a feeling" of homosexual desires is as sinful as committing the act since all sin begins in the heart.

If I were, for even 3 seconds, desire sexual relations with a married or unmarried woman, that is sin and God's book, it is no different than committing the act."

I am definitely including "feelings" where hetrosexual immorality is concerned.

You have to compare apples with apples.

The mistake YOU are making is that you are trying compare Homosexual feelings with the natural God-designed hetrosexual urge. The two cannot be compared. One is a natural urge the other is perverted expression of that urge.

I am comparing homosexual feelings with the feelings that precede other sins. I am judging the feelings that bring on homosexuality on the same grounds that I judge the feelings that bring on such things as adultery, premarital sex, murder, witchcraft, necromancy, pedophilia, incest, etc.

It is contradictory to say that they are the same, and yet put such an obvious difference on the two. A difference, I might add, that is NOT addressed in scripture - the Bible says nothing of what it is to be homosexual, it only speaks of the acts (and by association the lusts behind it).

There is no contradiction.

The problem is that you are still under the delusion that homseoxual desire and hetrosexual urge are the same. I am treating homsosexual feelings no differently that the feelings that drive people to commit other sins.

It appears to contradictory to because we operating under two different paradigms. I am arriving at my conclusion based on Scripture and have posted plent of it. You are operating under secular, carnal reasoning, which is why you cannot bring yourself to see homosexuality as a perversion that begins in the heart.

I know I said I would not respond further, but I am just flabbergasted by the contradictions in what you write - and more pressing still, I am flabbergasted by the fact that you don't realise these contradictions.

The problem is on your end, not mine. I have bent over backwards to clarify what I am saying.

[ParanoidAndroid]

The mistake YOU are making is that you are trying compare Homosexual feelings with the natural God-designed hetrosexual urge. The two cannot be compared. One is a natural urge the other is perverted expression of that urge.

And you have a Bible scripture that supports such a position? Where does it say that homosexuality is a perverted expression of the heterosexual urge? Nothing is ever spoken of what it is to have these urges. Only the actions (and by association the lust behind it) is said to be sin.

There is no contradiction.

The problem is that you are still under the delusion that homseoxual desire and hetrosexual urge are the same. I am treating homsosexual feelings no differently that the feelings that drive people to commit other sins.

It appears to contradictory to because we operating under two different paradigms. I am arriving at my conclusion based on Scripture and have posted plent of it. You are operating under secular, carnal reasoning, which is why you cannot bring yourself to see homosexuality as a perversion that begins in the heart.

If it is a conclusion based on scripture - then share it. Not passages that say sin begins in the heart. We already agree on that position. I have no problem in agreeing that sin begins in the heart. Yet when it comes to the act of sexual immorality, heterosexual urges/feelings are ok as long as they do not breed lust (or worse). Homosexuality on the other hand is wrong to even have that urge/feeling - whether it breeds lust or not is irrelevant.

You cannot hold this premise as true and then say that you treat all sins the same - there is clearly a distinction here that you are ignoring (or more correctly, fudging the record to make it appear less than what it is).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gah, I keep saying I won't reply but every time I do you make such a blatantly crazy statement that causes me to respond - and thus the circle gets ever wider still. I'll try not to respond again, this is just getting us nowhere

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ May 6 2009, 08:19 AM)

The mistake YOU are making is that you are trying compare Homosexual feelings with the natural God-designed hetrosexual urge. The two cannot be compared. One is a natural urge the other is perverted expression of that urge.

And you have a Bible scripture that supports such a position? Where does it say that homosexuality is a perverted expression of the heterosexual urge? Nothing is ever spoken of what it is to have these urges. Only the actions (and by association the lust behind it) is said to be sin.

No, you don't understand.

1. There is no such thing as a homosexual "urge." The "urge" is the original sexuality God created to be expressed by a man and woman within the boundaries of marriage. The expression of sexual desire between a man and his wife, if the only sanctified form of sexual expression in the Bible. God's prescription is that one man marries one woman and they stay married until the die. There is NO proper sexual desire or expression outside of that union.

2. As for Scripture... Once again, I have brought up the following: (Matt 5:28, Matt. 15:18-19; Mark 7:21-22; James 1:14-15). These scriptures provide a measuring stick by which we can measure ALL sin, no matter what. We have a working principle that all sin begins in the heart. Sinful speech and sinful deeds all begin in the heart of a person and are a revelation of what is their heart. That being said, all sins that a person can commit are sinful from the very first moment we entertain the temptation.

3. Working from God's established prescription for sexual expression in conjunction with the principle laid out in the above scriptures, we are able to examine homosexuality in the light of both. Any expression of sexuality outside of God's prescription is a perversion of that original purpose. That includes lust, homosexual desires, the desire to commit fornication or adultery, the desire to commit pedophilia or beastiality, etc. All of those are perveted expressions of the sexuality God originally created.

Homosexual desires fall outside of God's Will. God is a God of absolute truth and abolute holiness. There is no compromise in God and likewise there should be none in us. God hates sin right from the very moment it appears in our lives. What might seem as an innocent, passing thought or desire to us, depending on what it is, is sinful to God. That tinge of jealousy or coveteousness that we often give no second thought about is as sinful to God as committing the very act. They have to be confessed to the Lord just the same as the sins that appear more profound that we also commit.

God doesn't ignore or over look the inklings of homosexual desires that crop up in the minds and hearts of some people. You might, but God doesn't.

If it is a conclusion based on scripture - then share it. Not passages that say sin begins in the heart. We already agree on that position.

yeah, but you refuse to follow through to the natural conclusion that such a position forces us to reach. How strong does the desire have to be before it is sinful? How long does God compromise His holiness before He sees a thought or desire as sinful?

You cannot hold this premise as true and then say that you treat all sins the same - there is clearly a distinction here that you are ignoring (or more correctly, fudging the record to make it appear less than what it is).

I have already established that I am entirely consistent in how I view homosexuality next to sins like adultery, premarital and all extramarital affairs. I have shown that each of them are sinful from the very moment they are entertained. I have not treated homosexualilty any differently.

Your position evidently is that it is alright to "feel" like a homosexual as long as you don't commit the act. That could not be further from the truth.

Again, I point to the fact that if you were married and you had "feelings" or even attraction for some other woman, your wife would not be comfortable with that arrangement even if you didn't really act on those feelings.

It is not okay to feel like you want to murder someone even if you don't act on those feelings.

The Bible is chock full of scripture about the heart of man and that biblical purity begins in the heart. A heart that has homoseuxal feelings is not a pure heart. Biblical purity begins with us NOT entertaining the sinful thoughts that pop into our head. If there are desires in us that are not supposed to be there, then we need to take those to the Lord, not cover them up as if they are nonissues.

Another mistake you are making is with the lust factor. If it is sinful to lust after someone outside of God's marital prescrioption, then the desire that conceived the lust is likewise sinful.

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. (James 1:14-15) It is evil to desire a homosexual encounter. That is an evil desire as it does not fall within what God says is right. Anything outside of the biblical presription is evil and thefore, by proclamation, sinful.

Gah, I keep saying I won't reply but every time I do you make such a blatantly crazy statement that causes me to respond - and thus the circle gets ever wider still. I'll try not to respond again, this is just getting us nowhere

No, I simply don't make any room for your liberal, nonbiblical views. I am operating from a biblical paradigm. You are making arguments that I would sooner expect to hear from nonChristians.

[Guest shiloh357]

In saying this you are completely ruling out that such behaviour might have a genetic factor or some other cause that is something other than personal choice.

Yes I am. You are exactly correct.

That is why I mentioned the Bonobos. Homosexual behaviour is common and natural to these apes.

That is purely ridiculous. Trying to judge human behavior by what animals do is beneath my intelligence. I am not going to analyze human behavior based on what I saw a couple of rotweilers doing behind the car wash.

I don't think yourself or others would have any problem with the notion that heterosexual attraction is genetically determined.

Actually people like me believe it is a gift from our Creator. He placed that in us. Sexuality is programmed into us by our creator.

I do understand your conundrum. If God created the Bonobos why would he give them a behaviour that he found abhorrent?

There is no conundrum. Just because we can find animals who eat their young does not justify you eating your children. Just because you can find somes apes that have same-gender intercourse does not suddenly make it okay for humans.