Alcohol

[Servant54]

Prohibition hangover says...

All wine in the bible is alcoholic....

Isaiah 65;8 speaks of wine in clusters (tiyrosh) --- Here we have alcoholic wine in clusters ? Must be a hybrid (sorry I had too )

Isaiah 16;10 speaks of treading wine in presses (yayin)---- here we have wine already fermented as it is being treaded ? (another hybrid)

Pro 3;10 presses burst with new wine (tiyrosh) ---again this is fermented?

Jeremiah 48:33 here wine(yayin) fails from the winepresses ----fermented?

Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain ----Kids drinking alcoholic wine and calling out for it?

Zech9:14 grain shall make the young men thrive, new wine makes the young women thrive (tiyrosh)----- young women drinking alcohol and it causes them to thrive?

OVedya..your "authoritative author" does not know his scripture or he would not have made such statements. Back to the drawing board.

Read 30 such articles for and against drinking alcohol on the internet and you will see many of these foolish statements debunked.

[Axxman]

Read: http://prohibitionhangover.com/israelwine.html

Believe it or not...I have read that blog recently. I immediately recognized it because of his awesome pictures.

Two things of note about his blog:

1. The guy knows NOTHING of the scriptural use of wine in the bible. Right off the bat he makes the VERY FLAWED statement that the bible only uses two words for "wine." Those two words he claims are yayin and oinos. He also claims that they always mean fermented wine. Nevermind about words like shakar, gleukos, tirosh that are also used in the bible and translated as "wine." Also, nevermind the fact that "oinos" doesn't even mean "wine" at all...it is a generic term that refers to ANY part of the grape, at ANY stage of its development (so much ofr "always" fermented.) And also nevermind the vast historical evidence that all of those words can be used to mean fermented or unfermented juice. This blogger was hopelessly uninformed, or he simply misunderstood the tour guide...because he was way wrong in his assessment. everything he wrote after that flawed diagnosis is wrong because of his basic misunderstanding at the outset.

2. The Israelites made wine. So did the Egyptians, the Chaldeans, and the Italians...it proves nothing to say they made wine. Every culture has made wine, beer and hard liquor. That in NO way proves that it was a required staple. In 2000 years people are going to look back on the USA and think we "needed" and produced vast amounts of alcohol that was required for every celebration or weekend...lol. But that doesn't make it true. Will they say about us..."wine was much more than a staple of life to Americans: it was a symbol of their freedom from bondage and a necessity in every American celebration and Holiday." This blogger makes that very astute judgement of the Jews. Why? Because Israelites made wine??? Now there is a stretch. Civilizations produce alcoholic beverages, they always have and they always will. It doesn't prove that it was a "staple" of their existence...or a "symbol" of their freedom...or that it was a "necessity" of life for that society.

Nice blog...great pictures...seriously misinformed.

[Smalcald]

Yeah I would agree. I think it is clear though that wine was used for the Passover meal, just as it is today. But wine was also abused by the Jews at different times also. But when it comes to these sorts of debates about Jewish Law, Jewish Custom etc, I will frankly look to the Orthodox Jews who have studied AND practiced these things for thousands of years. They would not intentionally break God's laws concerning food and drink.

Now I have been recently thinking about this is through the lens of our culture here in the US. The US has more problems with drugs and alcohol than other countries do. We indeed have higher levels of addiction, higher levels of illegal drug consumption. So how as Christians living in this sort of pagan hedonistic culture do we respond? For me in regards to fermented beverages very carefully indeed. As servant has pointed out "drunkenness and revelries" are signs of un-beleif and as Paul says those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. So this is serious.

For me I am simply not convinced that drinking any amount of wine or beer is sin based on the weight of scripture. But I know others will not agree.

This issue should not divide us however.

[Guest man]

Where does Communion fall into all of this?

Anyone want to answer this?

[Shiloh62]

Where does Communion fall into all of this?

Anyone want to answer this?

It does kind of appear that we've gotten a little off of the subject!

[Servant54]

Servant A few more. Sorry, it wouldn't let me do so many quotes.

A]

Hosea 4:11

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

Hosea 4:10-12 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter)

Wine or grape juice and why? Notice the word 'new"? Do you think this means grape juice can be bad?

B]

Joel 1:5

Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

Wine or grape juice? Notice the word new?

C]

Acts 2:13

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Wine or grape juice?

D]

Did you ever wonder, with about 230 references to the word wine why did God not make it obvious that if He wanted us not to touch it, why, with soooo many mentions, did he not even mention that we should abstain? Why not make it obvious like He did with John the Baptist or Samson?

No one has commented on this although I've tried to make the point many times. Why is there no single outright admonishment against taking a little wine? Please... God had 230 chances to do this and didn't do it. Why do you think that is?

A] Wine here was alcoholic . Why was new wine mentioned ALSO? The best comment I have heard is that new wine was thought of as a commodity..like grain, oil, wealth mainly. Wealth, women and booze are the three things (maybe power also) that take a man away from the Lord.

If both wine and new wine were both alcoholic why repeat that they both take away the heart..it makes no sense.

B] Again there is no reason to mention both new and old if the point is they are alcoholic. New wine cut off means the economy/prosperity will be cut off.

C] Again why new wine, why not just say wine....perhaps new wine could accidentally become alcoholic if left out too long and those who watched thought the 120 got into some. This statement does not make sense if everyone drank alcoholic wine all the time. Perhaps the knew this sect only drank new/sweet wine.

Can you make sense of this from your position?

D] Yes I did wonder. I wonder during a debate with a polygamist. So many references to good men having plural wives and so few scriptures to prove it was wrong..I really felt weak...I felt like David against Goliath but without the confidence.

I actually think there are tons of things in the bible that only those who will search it out will learn..that is the way it is written..I am totally in awe of its complexity. Just amazing.

The alcohol debate had tons of stuff to show that drinking is wrong, but I think for most people it is a heart problem not a lack of scripture problem.

Again thanks for the time you put into your questions. I enjoy the challenge and believe it is good to get the information out.

[Shiloh62]

Servant A few more. Sorry, it wouldn't let me do so many quotes.

A]

Hosea 4:11

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

Hosea 4:10-12 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter)

Wine or grape juice and why? Notice the word 'new"? Do you think this means grape juice can be bad?

B]

Joel 1:5

Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

Wine or grape juice? Notice the word new?

C]

Acts 2:13

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Wine or grape juice?

D]

Did you ever wonder, with about 230 references to the word wine why did God not make it obvious that if He wanted us not to touch it, why, with soooo many mentions, did he not even mention that we should abstain? Why not make it obvious like He did with John the Baptist or Samson?

No one has commented on this although I've tried to make the point many times. Why is there no single outright admonishment against taking a little wine? Please... God had 230 chances to do this and didn't do it. Why do you think that is?

A] Wine here was alcoholic . Why was new wine mentioned ALSO? The best comment I have heard is that new wine was thought of as a commodity..like grain, oil, wealth mainly. Wealth, women and booze are the three things (maybe power also) that take a man away from the Lord.

If both wine and new wine were both alcoholic why repeat that they both take away the heart..it makes no sense.

B] Again there is no reason to mention both new and old if the point is they are alcoholic. New wine cut off means the economy/prosperity will be cut off.

C] Again why new wine, why not just say wine....perhaps new wine could accidentally become alcoholic if left out too long and those who watched thought the 120 got into some. This statement does not make sense if everyone drank alcoholic wine all the time. Perhaps the knew this sect only drank new/sweet wine.

Can you make sense of this from your position?

D] Yes I did wonder. I wonder during a debate with a polygamist. So many references to good men having plural wives and so few scriptures to prove it was wrong..I really felt weak...I felt like David against Goliath but without the confidence.

I actually think there are tons of things in the bible that only those who will search it out will learn..that is the way it is written..I am totally in awe of its complexity. Just amazing.

The alcohol debate had tons of stuff to show that drinking is wrong, but I think for most people it is a heart problem not a lack of scripture problem.

Again thanks for the time you put into your questions. I enjoy the challenge and believe it is good to get the information out.

What exactly is meant by the term "new" wine?

[Servant54]

What exactly is meant by the term "new" wine?

The word in Hebrew is Tryosh. According to what I have studied it is newly squeezed juice, it might be several months old but not alcoholic under normal circumstances.

The term "wine"(Heb Yayin) could be alcoholic or not alcoholic it is a generic term for any beverage of the grape.

New wine is only mentioned once in the NT, it is implied in the wine skins parable. Wine in the NT is "oinos" in Grk.

[Guest man]

Where does Communion fall into all of this?

Anyone want to answer this?

If consuming alcohol is a sin, are people sinning when they participate in communion?

[Guest LadyC]

Where does Communion fall into all of this?

Anyone want to answer this?

If consuming alcohol is a sin, are people sinning when they participate in communion?

do you mean are they really sinning in the eyes of God? or are you asking a rhetorical question about whether they are sinning in the eyes of some who are involved in this debate?