Alcohol

[Servant54]

We have already gone over this but I need to memorize it anyway.....the Greek reads "not given to" in Timothy 3:3 and the Greek in Titus 1:7 reads " not one beside wine"

Your translation is not a transliteration but a poor paraphrase of what is really said. We need to check the Greek if we are going to form doctrine from a passage.

Again every Christian is called to be "Not given to drunkenness" so even baby Christians could be elders if that was the only rule in becoming one..it makes no sense.

No one has answered why Timothy was abstaining when Paul said take a little wine for stomach sake..care to take a stab at it?

Thank you for answering kindly to me.

The word is the same in both 1 Timothy 3:3 and Titus 1:7. The greek word is "paroinos" and means, quite simply, "not given to wine." I.e., not a drunkard. It does not mean to abstain from alcohol.

3943 p

[Servant54]

BTW the wine in Proverbs 23:31 to a person who is familiar with making wine knows that cup is infected with a very toxic bacteria that usually results in death if injested. Go to the origional language to fully understand what it's talking about. The going down smooth part is not what it's really talking about in later translations. It's the moving itself alright and sparkling that should make you pour it out and whatever it came in and whatever you poured it into. You will find that terminlogy in the KJV.

So what you are saying is this is not a warning about drinking or drunkeness but this is a warning about drink poison.

I have heard this before and since we all know is that grape juice is not poison and finished wine is not poison I would have a hard time believing something in between is

Do we know of anyone who has died from this...I thought not.

Later translations? What does that mean? They say pretty much the same thing.

Maybe a little proof to back up your "fact"..I have a hard time with these statements. I believe this is totally untrue.

Actually yes we do..... well at least those who have played around with making wine do. One of the major California wineries sold some wine that contained this bacteria and as I remember two or three people died from it and it made several others sick before they could recall it. Happened about 35 or so years ago. I find it interesting that you didn't bother to look up the scripture, for they do not say the same thing.

I don't know if I can find anything that would satisfy you on the bad wine, but if I can find something still available I'll post it.

So, is what you are saying is Proverbs 23:31 is saying do not look at wine in the making of it because it may contain botulism or other poison ?

Right in the middle of talking about a moral issue the father STOPS and is bring up issues about accidental poisonings. I love it!

Please, keep going on this topic, find more on it. Get some quotes about wine fermenting is poison until it is fermented.

I think your story about California is talking about wine that was finished..not in the "process of being made"..kind of defeats the point of bring in up if the people were not poisoned by wine that was in the process of fermenting..right?

"Later translations?" Still wondering what this is about.

[Servant54]

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!

Here's your passage. I see no where where it says the alcohol is a sin. Can you point it out? This is speaking to a persons attitude towards the alcohol. Wanting it, needing it, craving it.

Thank you for addressing this scripture. Thank you for your commentary.

What you say is exactly what I have said all along..".DO NOT WANT IT. NEED IT, CRAVE IT!"

It is a commandment.."DO NOT" (Read other "DO NOT's" in the chapter)

Is it any clearer than this?

If you break a commandment you are sinning.

Join me..do not want it, do not need it, do not crave it....abstain from it.

Thank you for all your time in creating your post.

Have a great day.

[jeffnevins]

49 pages in 2 weeks. Muy poplar topic.

I think the answer is: Alcohol, right. Drunkenness, wrong.

[south]

I myself hold the position that it is unwise, and from what I've read in the Word, it just isn't a good idea- unless it's wine consumed by someone who is sick and/or dying. Both Proverbs and 1 Timothy state that.

I plan to evaluate the Greek text to see specific meanings for the words used in their contexts.

But anyways, my reason for asking is because I've knocked heads with my girlfriend a few times about the issue. She says, "I've never tried it. What's wrong with just trying it? I mean, Jesus drank wine... it's okay as long as you don't get drunk. It's not a sin."

What I need is scriptural evidence for the the doctrines concerning alcohol; whether or not it should be consumed or not.

Thank you.

Hi,

In Proverbs 20:1

"Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise."

Blessings...South

[Servant54]

Again, the Greek word it itself denotes" not to be near or by". The definition your person made is only that persons definition not the actual definition of the word. Yes , its one Greek word, my bad, I did not look down at it when looking it up. Why not just say do not be drunk like Eph 5:18.

What would be the point of this qualification if every Christian already follows it...no Christian is to be drunk. It would not denote a higher standard. It would not go along side of being "blameless".

What about a deacon why do we have the word "much" there? Why are his qualifications different that an elder?

If Paul's admonishment to Timothy does not denote that he was abstaining from wine, what does it show? It would not make sense to render it any other way.

It is ok if you can not explain it, it is only a side point to show a pastor abstaining, which gives a flavor to how it was back then. Of course it is not the "missing link" it just shows a responsible person abstaining even with stomach problems that could be solved by not abstaining.

I do agree the church at Corinth and around Asia Minor did drink alcoholic wine. They were very worldly Gentiles It looked to be mixed with water. You had to drink" much" to be to a point where you effected your testimony. I do not think it was the wine of today as in Proverbs 23:31 and so we have two different types of wine. I believe there were several types in bible days.

I do not think we can compare those folks to us straight across, that would be dangerous, I believe we are held to a higher standard, we have a million other products to drink, pop, many juices, good water. I do not believe Christians here should GET INTO drinking as a liberty sighting a society that was COMING OUT of drinking and drunkenness.

So I say to you do not be along side a women of the evening and do not be along side of wine.

Have a great day.

Where are your getting your definitions?

First off it's not "my person." I did not write the book, I only got the definition from it. The problem is, the word does not mean what you say it means and you simply don't have the decency to admit you are wrong. Every biblical scholar and information source is wrong, and you are the only one who knows what the word means? Strong's, Thayer's and Vine's are all wrong? Let's look at a few more then:

3943 πάροινος [paroinos /par

[Servant54]

Thank you for addressing this scripture. Thank you for your commentary.

What you say is exactly what I have said all along..".DO NOT WANT IT. NEED IT, CRAVE IT!"

It is a commandment.."DO NOT" (Read other "DO NOT's" in the chapter)

Is it any clearer than this?

If you break a commandment you are sinning.

Join me..do not want it, do not need it, do not crave it....abstain from it.

Thank you for all your time in creating your post.

Have a great day.

The command is still the same. Do not be a drunkard. You claimed it says not to drink at all. It does not say that. It does not imply that. Neither does Proverbs 31.

I do not drink. I abstain from alcohol, so your admonition is kind of wasted on me. I do not crave alcohol. That is not my problem. My problem is with your misuse of scripture.

I could careless what you do, (its between you and God) my addressing you is because of your missing what the text says not because you do or do not drink.

You said DO NOT WANT IT, I am just agreeing with you. You admitted (perhaps without realizing it) exactly what I have been saying..the bible says do not look on it and that means do not want it.

I will say it again..

Is it any clearer than this?

Edited May 23, 2009 by Servant54

[Axxman]

It is not a religious slur, and it is not a cheap shot. The Bible no where says one cannot drink alcohol. You can twist scripture around, and take it out of context, or re-write it to make it say that, but it never said it to begin with. Any text that speaks about alcohol is very plain and easy to understand. You don't need a hermeneutics course, or a Strong's, or a course in Hebrew or Greek to figure it out. When the Bible speaks about alcohol it speaks of abuse of alcohol. So placing any more constraints on what the Bible says beyond abusing alcohol is legalism. One assumes the position of knowing more than the Holy Spirit does about what an individual can and cannot do, personally. You basically say there's no such thing as personal conviction.

No, the thread has gone on for pages because we've got people calling other people unsaved and trying to make scripture say something it doesn't say instead of getting rid of their own personal biases and actually letting the Word speak for itself, and accepting what it says.

Legalism is a man made word...its used as a religious slur to create bias agaisnt someone because of a particular belief they may (or may not ) have. It is not scriptural, and for all the talk of "plain and easy to understand" scripture...the right to call someone a religious slur like "legalist" is NOT biblical...plainly or otherwise.

Furthermore...just because YOU think that studying the scriptures beyond what some translator in the 1600's wrote down is the best way to understand scripture...doesn't mean that others don't find hermeneutics, or a Strong's, or just even a BASIC understanding in Greek and Hebrew a valuable resource in understanding God's word. We've got people on this thread complaining about the use of context in scripture...and now we've got you fussing over a deeper study and understanding of scripture...lol.

Lastly...Have you read the thread? I have NEVER said there is "no such thing as personal conviction." Thats a complete and total fabrication. In fact, I have been the LOUDEST and most vocal person on this thread in regards to the consumption of wine being a personal conviction between a person and God. There is no reason to attack me just because I don't like people trying to take the thread off-topic and calling names....or because I have a Strong's...lol.

(edit*) btw...we agree on a lot brother...I'm not trying to sound as fussy or upset as this post may sound.

[Axxman]

As for poor sources, Strong's, Vine's and Thayer's are poor sources?

I'm just relieved to see that you are okay with using a study tool...when you believe its convenient anyway..

fact is...if you read your own post you will see that they list several times that the translation is in fact:

3943. πάροινος parŏinŏs, par

[Servant54]

I do not blame anyone for faulting me. I probably look like I am way on a limb to some.

I went to bible college 14 years off and on( I was not a good student)..the first couple years we used what translations said and leaned heavy on commentaries..after getting burnt because we followed someone else's line of reason we began to branch out..study Greek and realize just how far off many scholars opinions were off. If we were all of the same belief system I could give you examples that would make you just cringe, but I do not want to offend anyone on here with my examples.

Finally as a student of the bible you began to leave others opinions unless you study say 30 of them and you sift through why they say what they say.

The truth usually shows up..just like with this subject..I tell people to read thirty articles pro and con and you began to see who has done the research and who is a parrot.

So, even though it seems we should grab what commentaries say, they are not always even in the ball park..many times they are right on..but we need to be careful not to take their word as gospel.

Just like now..what the words meaning is is right there and they trail off with some elaborate word picture.

I am not worried if you get this...I know you will some day and you will laugh going "oh that is what they were talking about"

This area of scripture about elders argued is actually neither nor there..it does not prove drinking is ok in God's eyes, even if you were right.

I think learning about commentaries is a good rabbit trail.

Enjoy the summer weather...........