Alcohol

[Servant54]

The agrument....

Why does the bible not call wine juice if that is what it is? It must be alcohol or they would have called it juice.

Lets turn this argument around..what does history show? History shows many contemporaries of our Lord calling plain juice wine(and they say it is non alcoholic) ..my question to those who insist you have to have juice mentioned in the bible......... is why juice not mentioned in some history quotes..why did they call juice wine?

I see abstainers on this board quoting history right and left...many quotes have been made to prove they had non alcoholic wine...where is the moderate sides historical quotes to show there was only alcoholic wine? or all wine was alcoholic.

I see the moderation side blowing right by many historical proofs and then starting again with "they had no non alcoholic wine" ignore historical quotes and they will just go away I guess.

I call on the moderation side to show us some historical quotes..they must be there since your idea of history is right.....show us the beef.

Here is another one in passing....

Aristotle(384-322) says of sweet wine, glukus, that it would not intoxicate. And that the wine of Arcadia was so thick that it was necessary to scrape it from the SKIN bottles in which it was contained, and dissolve the scrapings in water. Nott, London Ed p 80 Bible Wines by William Patton

The archeological record does not back up Mormonism or Evolution there is just no evidence of their many claims ...such is true with the moderation side of this argument they make many, many assertions and claims but have NO history written down to back up their claims.

If we are to stake our salvation and others salvation on a belief system as dangerous as moderation we are going to need more then someones ideas about something.

Show us the beef!

[Smalcald]

But you have not shown one scriptural command which says do not drink any wine. I would say the ball is in your court.

I can show you scripture which says do not ever eat pork, so why would God not say the same with wine?

[Smalcald]

If Christians are drunk, would you trust the type of wine they chose for the Lord's supper?..I think they came to church drunk if I am not mistaken so them drinking alcohol has nothing to do with what wine they used for the Lord's supper. Either way here again you have a huge bridge of assumption.

Sorry the assumption is yours once again.

Let us look at the passage.

17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord

[Servant54]

If Christians are drunk, would you trust the type of wine they chose for the Lord's supper?..I think they came to church drunk if I am not mistaken so them drinking alcohol has nothing to do with what wine they used for the Lord's supper. Either way here again you have a huge bridge of assumption.

Sorry the assumption is yours once again.

Let us look at the passage.

17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord

[Smalcald]

For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

[Ovedya]

Let me just ask a question after all of which has been discussed (and argued, and bickered about) so far: Who cares whether the wine at the Lord's Supper was, is, or should be alcoholic?

I mean, really......who cares?

Do you really think that the Lord Jesus cares one way or another? Which is more important, partaking of the Lord's Table or the restriction of whether the wine is fermented or not? he wine is a symbol of the Lord's blood, it is not the Lord's blood. The bread s a symbol of the Lord's body, it is not the Lord's Body. The only way that one can partake of the Lord's Table unworthily is if his heart is not in the proper condition before partaking of it. The Lord's Table has nothing to do with us in a sense, it has everything to do with us and He who instituted it.

[Servant54]

I just think we need to stick with scripture.

yes. and the whole of Scripture--not verses picked out here and there.

If you are going to stick to the whole of scripture, than you have to add in grace and salvation by faith, not of works, that we are under grace and not the law. Thus, this conversation is in part moot.

It seems that people to the extreme of one side or the other take the time to comment as with authority and perfect understanding on that which is a doubtful issue at best. (based on the use of good scriptures pointing to both points of view)

Perhaps, somewhere in the discussion should be the truth that salvation is OF THE LORD and is a free gift. Whether one drinks and for what reason they do so is between them and their LORD.

My uncle lost his salvation because he went from a moderate drinking to a drunk in the last part of his life. My father did pretty much the same however he got dementia and we TOLD his he quit drink so he did before he died.

My wife's best friends pastor decided he had liberty to drink so he did for awhile..but eventually it got the best of him and he lost his ministry.

We have am epidemic in our nation, our youth are dying because of this poison..and many are going to hell being mocked by it..we BETTER talk about it.

[Guest LadyC]

how do you know your uncle lost his salvation? i'm really curious about this. did he come out and tell God that he no longer wanted to go in heaven? did he REJECT the gift of salvation? or are you just assuming that he lost it because he started drinking heavily?

you do realize, don't you, that even christians fall into sinful behaviour patterns that, while they definitely damage their spiritual walk, don't get them kicked out of God's family.

one can't accidentally lose their salvation. many people even believe that it is impossible for a believer to reject their salvation. now, i believe one can make the choice to reject God, but it takes an awful lot of effort because God doesn't let go that easily. and it doesn't happen by just falling into a pattern of sin, or not one of us would EVER be able to make it to heaven.

[Believer1997]

Servant - It sounds to me like you've had some serious things happen in your family as a result of abusing alcohol. Like, LadyC, your relatives simply don't lose their salvation because they sin - God is not going to let go of them simply because they've abused alcohol. I think perhaps you have judged them as being lost - but I don't think that is necessarily the case. Abuse of anything - drugs, alcohol, money, sex addiction, gambling, etc. can lead to unhealthy patterns of lifestyle - but it doesn't cause God to withdraw His Love or Salvation. I think the Christian who has fallen in their Walk with God needs to re-evaluate and repent, but I would never say they 'lost their salvation' - that's not for us to decide.

[Guest yod]

I'll drink to that....

cheers!

seriously though, the problem isn't alcohol as much as it is an addictive personality. If anything begins to put you in submission, it is bondage that we don't need but not necessarily the loss of salvation. I'll let the Lord decide when someone has crossed that line...

but if drinking any alcoholic beverage is a "sin" then we are all yet without hope because Yeshua "sinned" according to that definition