WN: US late-term abortion clinic to close after doctor's murder -

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Dictionary.com

Terrorism:

1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

How does what happened to the doctor and his clinic not fit snugly under the first definition?

I am not convinced the man was trying to intimidate or coerce.

I believe he was acting as a vigilante taking down a mass murderer.

Really, if you beleive the man who shot Tiller was a terrorist, what would you call Batman? (Yeah, I know he's fictional, but talk about using fear....)

Being a vigilante is when you take the law into your own hands and stop crimes. If Tiller was a criminal then yes the man would have been acting as a vigilante (granted vigilantism often isn't the best thing to do).

Thing is the law is on Tiller's side, and he was technically doing nothing illegal. Immoral, perhaps, but still legal. Therefore, Tiller's murderer was not upholding the law, rather he asserted what he felt the law should be through violence. No matter how well intentioned his actions were, they were still wrong and criminal.

Regarding terrorism, perhaps this individual was not trying to intimidate or coerce, but what about those who bomb the clinic or those who vandalize?

Matt:

Did you just equate the actions of a prolific, murderous, barbaric, thug who took glee in his craft, with that of an inanimate object that needs a conscious acquaintence?

I know nothing about Tiller's career specifically, but I do know that if women didn't want late-term abortions he would have been out of a job. Perhaps relating him to an unfeeling piece of metal wasn't the most appropriate analogy, but I'm fairly certain he never forced his services on anyone.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Oh Hamburgers!

[nebula]

Right, and that's exactly what I was saying; to expect that things will change and that lives will be spared by the murder is frankly naive.

By the way - a quote from the article said this:

"Carhart has run his own clinic in Bellevue, Neb., since 1985, but had performed late-term abortions at Tiller's clinic because of Nebraska's more restrictive abortion laws."

So basically, this is not a new baby killer coming on the scene. It is simply an old one expanding a little bit. He's already sucked the brains out of tri-semester babies. He's just planning on making it a more permanent practice.

[Guest shiloh357]

but if you parallel the extremists with a more familiar type of terrorism (Al Quaida for example) I'm sure you would see there are many similarities. I do believe that calling these events domestic acts of terrorism is valid.

No, terrorism would be random killings of individuals, not targeting a prominent partial-birth abortionist.

Dictionary.com

Terrorism:

1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

How does what happened to the doctor and his clinic not fit snugly under the first definition?

Because the man who murdered the doctor made no political claims I am aware of. He acted alone and he was not mentally right any way. You cannot compare what this man did to terrorism.

What he did was commit murder and despite the fact that this doctor was the lowest kind of human on the planet, he died in act of cold-blooded murder akin to the kind of murder/infaticide he performed daily in a clinic.

[nebula]

Being a vigilante is when you take the law into your own hands and stop crimes. If Tiller was a criminal then yes the man would have been acting as a vigilante (granted vigilantism often isn't the best thing to do).

By reading what has been uncovered about the murderer, can you provide evidence that his intentions were to terrify?

From what I've read, I find more reason to believe he was acting as a vigilante for what the law should be in his mind, not what the law is.

Tiller had been taken to court more than once, and there is reason to believe he got off only because someone stepped in and judicialized legislation rather than upholding the law. (I'd give you the sources if I could re-find them.)

Really, the whole "terrorism" thing is nothing more than leftist propoganda.

[Burning_Ember]

Really, the whole "terrorism" thing is nothing more than leftist propoganda.

Please explain how what the Murderer did is different as compared to the Taliban, or real terrorism. Let's look that up in the dictionary.

Definition of Terrorism;

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

Use of violence or threats? Check.

To intimidate or coerce? Yeah, he was trying to stop abortion violently. Trying to stop something by shooting someone counts as violetn intimidation. The Taliban also uses threats of continued planned attacks of that type, as well. Check.

For Political Purposes? Obviously. Check.

Go ahead and blame leftist propaganda rather than taking an unbiased look at the situation and seeing what shoe fits.

Because the unbiased way to look at things is blaming it on leftist propaganda.

[Matthitjah]

What will we do when all that remains is God on His Throne with a child in His arms and Love in His eyes and the sound of His Heart cry?

[Matthitjah]

I'll tell you what is Terrifically Terrorizing;

Lu

[nebula]

Please explain how what the Murderer did is different as compared to the Taliban, or real terrorism.

Can you show me any other example where one mentally disturbed man targets and tracks down one particular man and kills him was called terrorism?

If anything, when one person of prominence is targeted to bring about political change, it's called an assassination.

So if you all wanted to call this an assassination rather than a murder, fine. But terrorism? No.

[MorningGlory]

Please explain how what the Murderer did is different as compared to the Taliban, or real terrorism.

Can you show me any other example where one mentally disturbed man targets and tracks down one particular man and kills him was called terrorism?

If anything, when one person of prominence is targeted to bring about political change, it's called an assassination.

So if you all wanted to call this an assassination rather than a murder, fine. But terrorism? No.

This is the definition of domestic terrorism under American law, more specifically, the Patriot Act:

A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.

The murder of Tiller does not meet this definition.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

but if you parallel the extremists with a more familiar type of terrorism (Al Quaida for example) I'm sure you would see there are many similarities. I do believe that calling these events domestic acts of terrorism is valid.

No, terrorism would be random killings of individuals, not targeting a prominent partial-birth abortionist.

Dictionary.com

Terrorism:

1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

How does what happened to the doctor and his clinic not fit snugly under the first definition?

Because the man who murdered the doctor made no political claims I am aware of. He acted alone and he was not mentally right any way. You cannot compare what this man did to terrorism.

What he did was commit murder and despite the fact that this doctor was the lowest kind of human on the planet, he died in act of cold-blooded murder akin to the kind of murder/infaticide he performed daily in a clinic.

I think it's safe to assume that the killer shot Tiller because of the fact he administered abortions, not because he had some sort of private quarrel with him. That alone makes it for a political purpose, and the killer either knowingly or unknowingly (most likely the former) wanted to send a message with the shooting. If it was premeditated in any way (which it must have been given the fact that Tiller was shot in church), then it can't be brushed aside as a just a fit of anger.

Nebula:

By reading what has been uncovered about the murderer, can you provide evidence that his intentions were to terrify?

From what I've read, I find more reason to believe he was acting as a vigilante for what the law should be in his mind, not what the law is.

First off, the murder was most likely premeditated, given the fact that Tiller was shot when he walked into the church. It is highly likely that the killer wanted to be an usher that day specifically so that he could kill Tiller, again bringing his gun for that purpose. To imagine that it was just a coincidence that he was an usher that day, and that he had his gun nearby, so that once Tiller walked in he was blinded by rage and just so happened to have the means to kill him there I think you and I could both agree sounds pretty crazy.

If the murder was premeditated that means two things to me: It means that the killer KNEW that he would be dispatching Tiller in front of other people, and that he wanted to make a statement. To me that qualifies as 'intentions to terrify'.

Also regarding the statement "acting as a vigilante for what the law should be in his mind, not what the law is", how is that not exactly what groups like Al Quaida do? They hate the freedom of religion America brings and the consumerism we possess. They think the law should be different from what it is, and seek violent means to carry out their plans. Again, being a vigilante requires you to be enforcing preexisting laws, not 'following what they think should be legal'.

Finally, if you are still unconvinced that Tillers death was an act of domestic terrorism, can you at least acknowledge that things like clinic bombings are?