Separation of Church and State

[James M]

Separation of Church and State?

I am confused about whether the Bible actually says that the Church ( or holy priest) should be a seperate organization from the State (or Govenment) and What about Family?

I have heard that the USA used to veiw this seperation of Church and State to Keep the Government out of controlling the Church, and its function in society. That in 1947 the Supreme Court re-asigned the definition of Separation and started a "back turning" step away from God.

Does not history show that those who turn their back on God; Family, Church, or Government will fall out of God's grace, and usually fail in whole?

Asking is the first step, knowledge comes to those who ask, and these are confusing times.

James M

This is odd to reply to self!

Andrew Wommack ministries has a thing on God and Country going on this week on his site. If interested just Google his name and check it out.

James M

[Massorite]

Yes, it is very important for America to have the separation of church and state. If we do not, then we eliminate FAITH. When our government is a theocracy, it tells us which religion is right. Not only that, but what denomination should our government be? Methodists, Baptists, Lutheran... etc. Anyone who was not already a member of which ever denomination we choose, would be unhappy. Plus, what if our government decides to be Jewish, Islamic, or Budists? America may have been founded on Judo-Christian values, but America is a place of freedom of religion. God gave us FREE WILL, the right to choose our religion, the right to find the correct one. If public schools force kids to pray before class, I would be upset. If that had happened to me, I would intentionally not pray, because I was being forced to. God will be on the side of our government no matter what, I am certain of this. Even if an athiest president were to lead us, (And there is a lot of evidence that some presidents in the past were secretly atheists), God would be on our side. Church and State should NEVER be unseperated. When you do that, you end up with a place like Iran.

No it very bad for America to have the separation of church and state and it is not at all biblical or blessed by God. In the old testament or the new testament there is no such a thing as the separation of church and state. The only government God Himself set up was in the old testament and God set up a Theocracy.

Which was then and still is to day the kind of Government God would have us to live with. There is no need for any kind of any other religion in any other country in the world except for the one religion that Jesus Christ is the Head of. That is why in the end there will once again be nothing but a Theocracy that will cover the whole earth. Why? Because that is the way God wants it.

I agree that God gave us free will but man is inherently evil and only Jesus can change that so in spite of our free will man is choosing the way of evil and the righteous who are righteous because of the shed blood of Christ are becoming fewer.

Denominations are all man made and have nothing to do with the word of God at all. So if we were to do it the way God has already shown us in His Word the only "denomination" we would have in this country would be none. We would live only by what the word of God says and no other way.

It is ludicrous to us a place like Iran as an example to justify your reasons for a separation of church and state because Iran is a paganist nation that has religious police who will arrest, beat ,torture, the cutting off of limbs and the murder of any body they deem has broken religious laws. In the old testament there were no such police force or punishments because God knew of every infraction and no one needed to tell Him. Which is why He set up way to deal with those who broke the law. God implemented sacrificing doves, sheep, goats being thrown out of the camp for a time, sickness, stoning for breaking certain laws and other forms of punishment. Not 50 lashes with a cane for simply sitting next to a man who wasn't your husband in public

Just look at what the separation of church and state has done to this country. We kill a million babies a year, we are giving in to and making laws that justify the gay agenda, there are some in our government who are actually trying to pass laws that will make certain scripture considered to be "Hate Speech". They want to shut down Christian Radio which in turn will shut down all of the preaching and prayer we are able to hear. Basically they are trying to shut down the Christian voice and you call that good? What do you think the future holds for us? If we continue down this road of rejecting God as a country God is going to take away our blessings and then we will be no better then any other poor third world country in the earth.

We certainly have the separation of church and state and the only religion that is being persecuted is Christianity.

I feel as if we have sat back and allowed this to happen to the Church, and only after the Supreme Court turn the phrase Seperation to mean seperate Christians from freedom, then these things you mentioned have happened in America. Our founding Fathers did all that they could to stop what America has began to become recently, but many are blinded by what the Schools have taught us to believe. Couldn't we vote this kind of action out of America? What if anything does Islam have to do with these abominations, and are they behind it at all? If ,we look to Europe 20 years Ago, and at Islamic influence there we may find we're being broken down by Islam, piece by piece.

In search of the truth, nothing else!

I agree James. We (not God) have let this happen and now it has gone to far for us to turn it back. It is the idea of the seperation of church and state that got prayer and the word of God taken out of our schools.

[James M]

The First Amendment:

Establishment of religion

Main article: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by the Congress or the preference of one religion over another, non-religion over religion, or religion over non-religion. Originally, the First Amendment only applied to the federal government. Subsequently, under the incorporation doctrine, certain selected provisions were applied to states. It was not, however, until the middle and later years of the twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses in such a manner as to restrict the promotion of religion by state governments. For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority, concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion".

Free exercise of religion

Main article: Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment

In Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398 (1963), the Warren Court applied the strict scrutiny standard of review to this clause, holding that a state must show a compelling interest in restricting religion-related activities. In Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990), the Supreme Court retreated from this standard, permitting governmental actions that were neutral regarding religion. The Congress attempted to restore this standard by passing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but in City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997), the Supreme Court held that such an attempt was unconstitutional regarding state and local government actions (though permissible regarding federal actions).

The Origin of a WALL of Seperation of Church and State:

A lot of Americans really think that there is a clause in either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution that says that there is a

[James M]

Yes, it is very important for America to have the seperation of church and state. If we do not, then we eliminate FAITH. When our government is a theocrasy, it tells us which religion is right. Not only that, but what denomination should our government be? Methodists, Baptists, Lutheran... etc. Anyone who was not already a member of which ever denomination we choose, would be unhappy. Plus, what if our government decides to be Jewish, Islamic, or Budists? America may have been founded on Judo-Christian values, but America is a place of freedom of religion. God gave us FREE WILL, the right to choose our religion, the right to find the correct one. If public schools force kids to pray before class, I would be upset. If that had happened to me, I would intentionally not pray, because I was being forced to. God will be on the side of our govenrment no matter what, I am certain of this. Even if an athiest president were to lead us, (And there is a lot of evidence that some presidents in the past were secretly athiests), God would be on our side. Church and State should NEVER be unseperated. When you do that, you end up with a place like Iran.

these two sentences in bold caught my eye. for the first one, i'm rather confused. given the opportunity to praise and worship and talk to your God.... out of spite, you wouldn't take that opportunity because of the reason the opportunity existed in the first place?? where is that rebellion coming from?

as for the second, i'm a little confused on that one, too. what do you mean? are you saying God will bless our government.... no matter what? are you saying that, according to God, the government is always "right"? or are you saying God will not let this government fall? if it's any of these, i would disagree. but as far as Church and state being separate, i agree with you.

James: i cannot give you specific verses, but i do know the Levites were separate from the rest of the tribes. they didn't hold land, and i'm not sure what kind of voice they had in what happened. there seemed to be different rules and duties regarding the Levites than there were for the other tribes. is that what you're looking for?

We are looking for just that, which is written in the Bible, concerning Kings and Preist/ prophets. When these two switch roles what example is given in the scriptures, and what are the results of these actions? These are the verses I would be looking for as bible study on Church and State ( being the same as Preist and Country/ King). This would aid in a biblical understanding of where America is heading in Gods eyes, and I would be very grateful for some aid in finding such examples.

I know by reading " The LOST Ten Tribes of Israel ,... Found" by Steven M. Collins that when any individual, family, group, govenment or nation turns away from God that thier fall is immenent, and can't help wondering if its too late for America, and the rest of the FREE world?

P.S. Wasn't there an Israelite King smote by God for trying to perform the High Priest duty somewhere in the Old Testament?

[Guest]

In search of the truth, nothing else!

Truth comes in many forms, Brother. Are you looking for scripture only or are you willing to accept the truth that is outside of scripture?

God's truth is the best, Mans truth often misleads.

Oh

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:36

I Believe

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:12-14

Father God Has Left His Servants With Mighty Letters of Credence

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5:20

And Fully Equips Them With His Firstborn's Own Armory

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Ephesians 6:10-18

For Kingdom Business Can Be Serious Indeed

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 10:34-36

Between Precious Times Of Refreshment

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:6

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. Titus 3:1-2

[paul1149]

James,

America's Founders established that there would be no official national denomination, not that religion would have no place informing public life (or even that the states could not have their own official denominations - many of them continued to for years after the Constitution, as there were stronger states' rights back then).

That's largely changed. The church has been sidelined away from its ordained prophetic role of informing the culture on moral issues, and we've got the social fruit to show for it.

At the same time, that same humanism has crept into the visible church, so that when the church does speak it sounds an increasingly unclear tone, and no one is roused for battle. The barbarians are within the walls.

God established a theocracy under Moses. Predictably, that theocracy failed, as everything based on law will do, because law and coercion cannot change the heart of man.

Christ established a better covenant and called His followers out of the world (ekklesia - the called-out). That doesn't mean that we can't vote or hold office - it's great when Christians are called to public service - but it does mean that we shouldn't be using the sword of the state to enforce Church matters (see 1Cor 5:12-13, et al). That was the disaster that followed Constantine's marriage of the institutional church to the state, and the Lord's reputation continues to suffer tremendously for it.

bb,

p.

[OneLight]

In search of the truth, nothing else!

Truth comes in many forms, Brother. Are you looking for scripture only or are you willing to accept the truth that is outside of scripture?

God's truth is the best, Mans truth often misleads.

I agree, but looking at your posts, you are not just looking for scripture, but mans ideas about the separation of church and state, so this question need not be answered.

[James M]

In search of the truth, nothing else!

Truth comes in many forms, Brother. Are you looking for scripture only or are you willing to accept the truth that is outside of scripture?

God's truth is the best, Mans truth often misleads.

I agree, but looking at your posts, you are not just looking for scripture, but mans ideas about the separation of church and state, so this question need not be answered.

Maybe this would answer my question and I must thank you for your sincere hopes that I would look to God's infallable word as the only answer. The words have changed within the 3- 4 millinium that they were originally stated and I perfer God's wording over man's. It is the same Priest/ King or Church/ State, the later being Humanistic. There was a seperation in the word of God, until Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Yeshua) came, and He being Our Priest/ King, with the only othe example being Abraham's Melckizedek.

We sometimes look in all places to find the answer that the Holy Spirit will show us it the word from God we need to serve the purpose given. Please never forget some of us here are still feeding on milk, and/ or moving on to the meat of the word and still need to grow in the Spirit, some are lost still and trying to find God. Lets not drive the Sheep away by leading them to a cleft and pushing them off, some need help and ask other will not ask, which is worst?

With Love (GOD)

Your Brother(in Christ)

James M

Now this Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of the Most High God, met Abraham when he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him. 2Abraham apportioned a tenth of everything to him. He is first

[James M]

In search of the truth, nothing else!

Truth comes in many forms, Brother. Are you looking for scripture only or are you willing to accept the truth that is outside of scripture?

God's truth is the best, Mans truth often misleads.

Oh

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:36

I Believe

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:12-14

Father God Has Left His Servants With Mighty Letters of Credence

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5:20

And Fully Equips Them With His Firstborn's Own Armory

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Ephesians 6:10-18

For Kingdom Business Can Be Serious Indeed

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 10:34-36

Between Precious Times Of Refreshment

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:6

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. Titus 3:1-2

Thank you so much Brother, you remind me of my earthly Brother Thomas who at a very young age tryed to teach me and lead me to Our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time I was Deaf to the word, and enjoyed the worldly things too much, all of which led to destruction ( some Have learn the hard way) Bless you brother for the reminder that God must be first and a complete surrender to His Will ( and to die within our self, on the Cross Daily if neccessary) is the only and true way.

May the Lord use you to save and teach many of the lost

And bless you with His knowledge and wisdom to apply it His Way

With the Love of God

To spread the Gospel

Heal the Sick

and Cast out Demons

With Love

Your Brother

James M

[OneLight]

Maybe this would answer my question and I must thank you for your sincere hopes that I would look to God's infallable word as the only answer. The words have changed within the 3- 4 millinium that they were originally stated and I perfer God's wording over man's.

Can you explain what you mean here? Are you implying that the word of God is not the word of God?

Personally, I think you are looking way to hard trying to understand what is very simple. The US, not wanting to fall into the trap of a Government Religion, made it possible for us to worship as we see fit. They did not want the government to tell them how to believe or what church to go to. It really is that simple.

Now, today, this meaning has been twisted into a stance that was not the true meaning of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. Today, those who do nto have a belief in any god, has tried to use this stance of freedom to remove such a freedom.