Concerning Creation

[martin frobisher]

The fact that science relies on the assumption that there are "rules" to the universe is not proof that the universe runs in that way.

Reference the experiments of Mendel and Millikan.

The rules are a discovery to how things work, and they are used to conduct further experiments, sent satellites to other planets, and everything else scientists do. If the universe isn't ordered by these "rules" then none of these would work.

Really, I don't see how one can argue that these "rules" are not there?

Well that's good because that's not what I'm arguing

No one has caught my reference to Mendel and Millikan yet, I see. I could chuck in the name of Dr Snow too.

Edited July 3, 2009 by martin frobisher

[martin frobisher]

It's a "cart before the horse" argument to conclude that Christian faith must tell us how the universe must be! Quite odd, in fact.

If we want to find out about the nature of creation, all we have to do is observe - it's called science Shiloh.

I don't know what you call using faith to decide what an experiment should tell us before it's been performed...but it certainly isn't science. It's a pre-enlightenment attitude it seems to me.

I'm not sure what sort of faith requires turning a blind eye to the discoveries of science to be a good Christian.

[BlindSeeker]

The fact remains that the universe is ordered and uniform, and without such, science would not be possible. Diversity is not the absence of order. Exploding stars does not necessarily indicate a lack of order.

Amen Shiloh.

The precision of a sharp shooter depends on many variables, grain load, size of projectiles, range of target, wind velocity, anticipated movement, density of substance behind which target resides and so on. But a skilled sharpshooter can hit his target with deadly precision . . . God just did it with a few more complications to the formula . . . but He still did it with precision.

Every crater on ever planet a direct and intended hit, every scatter atom flying towards an intended destiny. While finite minds fail to see order, it merely proves limits of comprehension and not absence of majesty in design.

The more we see into the minute or the cosmos, the more we see laws of creation in action.

The heavens truly do declare the glory of God.

[Guest shiloh357]

The fact remains that the universe is ordered and uniform, and without such, science would not be possible. Diversity is not the absence of order. Exploding stars does not necessarily indicate a lack of order.

Amen Shiloh.

The precision of a sharp shooter depends on many variables, grain load, size of projectiles, range of target, wind velocity, anticipated movement, density of substance behind which target resides and so on. But a skilled sharpshooter can hit his target with deadly precision . . . God just did it with a few more complications to the formula . . . but He still did it with precision.

Every crater on ever planet a direct and intended hit, every scatter atom flying towards an intended destiny. While finite minds fail to see order, it merely proves limits of comprehension and not absence of majesty in design.

The more we see into the minute or the cosmos, the more we see laws of creation in action.

The heavens truly do declare the glory of God.

Wow! that is a brilliant analogy. Just brilliant, Blindseeker. Thanks. Very well said.

[BlindSeeker]

The fact remains that the universe is ordered and uniform, and without such, science would not be possible. Diversity is not the absence of order. Exploding stars does not necessarily indicate a lack of order.

Amen Shiloh.

The precision of a sharp shooter depends on many variables, grain load, size of projectiles, range of target, wind velocity, anticipated movement, density of substance behind which target resides and so on. But a skilled sharpshooter can hit his target with deadly precision . . . God just did it with a few more complications to the formula . . . but He still did it with precision.

Every crater on ever planet a direct and intended hit, every scatter atom flying towards an intended destiny. While finite minds fail to see order, it merely proves limits of comprehension and not absence of majesty in design.

The more we see into the minute or the cosmos, the more we see laws of creation in action.

The heavens truly do declare the glory of God.

Wow! that is a brilliant analogy. Just brilliant, Blindseeker. Thanks. Very well said.

Wow Brother Shiloh!

I just gave you a big virtual brotherly hug!

[Guest shiloh357]

The fact remains that the universe is ordered and uniform, and without such, science would not be possible. Diversity is not the absence of order. Exploding stars does not necessarily indicate a lack of order.

Amen Shiloh.

The precision of a sharp shooter depends on many variables, grain load, size of projectiles, range of target, wind velocity, anticipated movement, density of substance behind which target resides and so on. But a skilled sharpshooter can hit his target with deadly precision . . . God just did it with a few more complications to the formula . . . but He still did it with precision.

Every crater on ever planet a direct and intended hit, every scatter atom flying towards an intended destiny. While finite minds fail to see order, it merely proves limits of comprehension and not absence of majesty in design.

The more we see into the minute or the cosmos, the more we see laws of creation in action.

The heavens truly do declare the glory of God.

Wow! that is a brilliant analogy. Just brilliant, Blindseeker. Thanks. Very well said.

Wow Brother Shiloh!

I just gave you a big virtual brotherly hug!

Huggin' right back at ya!!

[nebula]

It's not that the "rules" aren't there, it's that they are insufficient. They are a vey small part of a very large picture.

Really? How are they insufficient?

Following these rules has led to vaccinations, atom smashers, successfully landing man on the Moon and bringing him safely home, etc., etc., etc.

So I'm not following your train of thought.

Please explain.

And what is the "large picture" you speak of?

Thanks!

[nebula]

Well that's good because that's not what I'm arguing

No one has caught my reference to Mendel and Millikan yet, I see. I could chuck in the name of Dr Snow too.

Then what are you arguing?

And I didn't regard your references because you need to explain how what they did supports your case.

Please explain.

Thanks!

[martin frobisher]

Science is about observation of facts, correct?

And then formulating rules on the basis of these observations, correct?

However, often scientists start off with a hypothesis and "fudge" their observations to fit their postulated rules - Mendel, Millikan and Dr Snow are all examples of this.

Science assumes that the universe behaves predictably, but this presumption is not the same as proof, as Shiloh seems to think. Scientists find anomalies all the time, and these anomalies are in fact the basis of progress, as we know then that our model has flaws!

We now know that mass is not always conserved, for example, a "rule" which seemed inviolable at one point.

We know that there is far more to genetics than simple Mendelian principles.

What we cannot do is let our faith or philosophy affect our observations. Einstein didn't accept that "God plays dice with the universe". Genuis that he was, his preconceptions affected his ability to take on certain ideas.

Edited July 3, 2009 by martin frobisher

[nebula]

Scientists find anomalies all the time, and these anomalies are in fact the basis of progress, as we know then that our model has flaws!

But seeking to understand the anomalies tends to lead to new discoveries.