Concerning Creation

[martin frobisher]

Regarding chaos, and it's been a while since I did "pure" science, although entropy is on the increase in the universe as a whole inexorably (according to the theory) that does not mean that order cannot increase in a part of the universe.

So order does not indicate for sure a creator.

I find it interesting how people pronounce that God is a God of order...

where do they get this extra-Biblical revelation from, and why do they expect us to give it much credence?

God delights in confounding the expectations of us mere mortals, and the Bible demonstrates this time after time.

Edited July 5, 2009 by martin frobisher

[lekh l'kha]

I want a scientist to explain to me how there is any order at all if the natural state of matter is chaos. There must be some super-natural force at work if the natural state is random and chaos.

Show me what force is upholding all things and preventing everything from returning to its natural state, and I'll show you God.

lekh.

Not a scientist, but perhaps I could clear things up a little. One reason you might be confused here is in using the word "chaos", after all what does this really mean? If we take a look at the particles in a frozen glass of water they should be nice and packed together, perhaps vibrating slightly but not actually going anywhere like this. Now we would usually say that this represents

Edited July 5, 2009 by lekh l'kha

[martin frobisher]

I personally believe that science and faith are separate areas, and so there is no need to oppose them at all. Science deals with the tangible apsects of creation, the "seen", and faith deals with the higher, spiritual things, the "unseen".

Science can deal with the "how", but not with the ulltimate "why".

[Guest]

.... This is why science can never disprove God, because it needs natural means to measure something super-natural ....

Science Is The Investigation Of The Material Word Around Us By Observation, Measurement And Reproducible Test Results

Although Some "Scientists" Insert Their Worldviews (Evolution Or Space Ships Or Some Such SciFi) Of Origins, Values And Destinies.

They Have No Direct Observation Nor Verifiable Measurements Nor Can They Produce Any Reproducible Test Results To Back Up These Stories.

Some Claim Results With Germs And Viruses And Such But A Monkey They Don't Make Except In Journals Of Endless And Unverifiable Dreams And Speculations.

A. The Presuppositions of Science

One presupposition held by many scientists is that "the scientific method is the sole gateway to the whole region of knowledge" (Pearson, cited by Clark, p. 201). In other words, science allegedly has absolute authority. Science says that truth is discovered empirically, while the Bible says that man can't find ultimate truth on his own (1 Cor. 2:9-11; Rom. 11:33). It is here that one of the fundamental conflicts between science and Scripture is found. Science holds that only that which is observable and testable is true. Christianity holds that ultimate truth is found only in God's revelation.

Origins, Values And Destinies Are God's Work

But as Scripture says: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him."

God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches everything, especially the deep things of God.

After all, who knows everything about a person except that person's own spirit?

In the same way, no one has known everything about God except God's Spirit.

Now, we didn't receive the spirit that belongs to the world.

Instead, we received the Spirit who comes from God so that we could know the things which God has freely given us.

We don't speak about these things using teachings that are based on intellectual arguments like people do.

Instead, we use the Spirit's teachings.

We explain spiritual things to those who have the Spirit.

A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the teachings of God's Spirit.

He thinks they're nonsense.

He can't understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them.

Spiritual people evaluate everything but are subject to no one's evaluation.

"Who has known the mind of the Lord so that he can teach him?"

However, we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:9-15 GOD'S WORD

[nebula]

Well nebula the scientific method depends on observation, correct?

But philosophically, if we do something a thousand times and the same thing happens every time, we may well be pretty certain the same thing will happen the thousand-and-first time - but we can't guarantee it!

I see a slight problem with your reasoning.

Science and philosophy don't mix.

That's why Aristotle was so wrong about everything . . . he viewed his study of nature through the eyes of philosophy.

So the people that had never come across two indentical snowflakes could not confidently state that no two snowflakes are alike, could they?

Look at the interpretation of clinical trials. The statistics may indicate that the probability of the two "treatments" being equivalent is less than 5%, but that cannot be taken to be unequivocal evidence that the active treatment works, can it? Which is one reason why research is replicated by different institutions.

But until the 5% is disproved, it will continue to be science's gold standard for accuracy. Philosophize all you want, science goes with the evidence and reuslts, not philosophical panderings.

[nebula]

That being said, allow me to present my take on faith and creation.

As was pointed out:

8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. (Romans 1)

Biblically, our universe and our world and all that is in it was built by a Creator who incorporated His nature and attributes and character into what He created. Biblically, understanding what He created (what we call "nature") is meant to help us understand Him.

As an example, the Scripture declares, "God is light." Correct? Well, here's a fun exercise: pull together what we know about the nature and character of light, and see what that teaches you about the nature and character of God.

So, Martin, since you believe the Lord used evolution to create us, I'd like to hear what you can learn about the nature and character of God through evolution?

[Guest shiloh357]

Creation, according to the Bible is a reflection of its Creator. It is designed showcase the character and operations of God.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:19-20)

God is glorified by the Created order:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

(Psalms 19:1-3)

Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

(Psalms 148:2-3)

God is glorified when the created order reflects the truth about both His existence and His invisible attributes such as his power, wisdom, understanding, and compassion.

One thing all of creation witnesses to in particular is that God is a God order and logic. This is seen in the logic and order that the universe possesses. Not only that but the Bible speaks of God who does not change, who remains the same yesterday, today for forever, and with whom there is no variableness (Mal. 3:6, James 1:17, Heb. 13:8).

If God were not a God of order, and if He was entirely consistent, then His Word could not be trusted. We would not be able to place any faith in His promises. If He is one way today, but another way tomorrow, there would be nothing in God's character or person to which we could anchor our faith. We would not be able to trust Him for salvation if God is constantly confusing us with an ever-changing will or an ever-changing standard. We would not be able to know Him or fully rest upon Him as the guarantor of our eternal future.

God's purposes are never served by sowing confusion. He is not a God of confusion. He does not try to trick us or trip us up. Rather, God confounds the wisdom of men and brings it to shame by using what human wisdom considers foolish, weak and ignoble. Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:18-26, is showing that foolishness of the preaching of the cross is the very thing God uses to upset the applecart of human philosophy and reasoning. God's wisdom is foolishness to the world, and that "foolishness" brings to shame (confounds) wisdom of this world.

God never changes. He is a God order, consistency, and logic. For that reason His promises can always be relied upon. Jesus was born "in the fullness of time. The Bible tells us that God operates in the fullness of time (Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10) God demonstrates plan, purpose and design in all that He does. Even when cannot always see or understand what God is doing, we can always trust that God has a plan and purpose and a design for whatever is going on in our lives. C.H. Spurgeon said:

"God is too good to be unkind. He is too wise to be confused. If I cannot trace His hand, I can always trust His heart."

Indeed, trusting in an unchanging God of order and purpose is one of the highest forms of worship we can offer Him.

[martin frobisher]

Well nebula the scientific method depends on observation, correct?

But philosophically, if we do something a thousand times and the same thing happens every time, we may well be pretty certain the same thing will happen the thousand-and-first time - but we can't guarantee it!

I see a slight problem with your reasoning.

Science and philosophy don't mix.

That's why Aristotle was so wrong about everything . . . he viewed his study of nature through the eyes of philosophy.

So the people that had never come across two indentical snowflakes could not confidently state that no two snowflakes are alike, could they?

Look at the interpretation of clinical trials. The statistics may indicate that the probability of the two "treatments" being equivalent is less than 5%, but that cannot be taken to be unequivocal evidence that the active treatment works, can it? Which is one reason why research is replicated by different institutions.

But until the 5% is disproved, it will continue to be science's gold standard for accuracy. Philosophize all you want, science goes with the evidence and reuslts, not philosophical panderings.

I'm not sure on what basis you say science and philosophy don't mix?

You're totally missing my point. When a study is "statistically significant", depending on what significance value is appropriate (as this will change when multiple hypotheses are tested as I hope you know), the possibility that the differences are due to chance may be 5%. That's not "philosophical pandering" or even philosophical pondering as I suspect you meant, but stating the situation. This is very basic stuff, without which you can't really understand science - it's not vague rambling guff.

[martin frobisher]

Biblically, our universe and our world and all that is in it was built by a Creator who incorporated His nature and attributes and character into what He created. Biblically, understanding what He created (what we call "nature") is meant to help us understand Him.

up to a point, yes - but the creator is fundamentally different from the creation, and there is a limited amount we can learn about God from creation IMO

As an example, the Scripture declares, "God is light." Correct? Well, here's a fun exercise: pull together what we know about the nature and character of light, and see what that teaches you about the nature and character of God

The basis of describing anything is drawing on the readers' experience of the familiar. Not all analogies are meant to be extended too far. God is not both a particle and a wave, for example. God is not just one part of a spectrum of related phenomena, either.

So, Martin, since you believe the Lord used evolution to create us, I'd like to hear what you can learn about the nature and character of God through evolution?

That presupposes that I agree with your assumptions, which as I have detailed I don't. The truth of evolution does not depend on it demonstrating useful moral lessons about God.

[nebula]

I'm not sure on what basis you say science and philosophy don't mix?

You're totally missing my point. . . .

OK, you are correct - your point is completely lost to me.

Umm . . . what was the subject again?