Creation: Essential for a Healthy Christian Worldview

[Guest shiloh357]

God is perfect and cannot create imperfect creatures. He cannot create imperfectly. The imperfections in humanity, such as, evil deeds, handicaps, disability, susceptibility to sickness, disease and death are the direct result of sin. Those things were not originally engineered into creation.

Ok, but what I'm getting at doesn't have anything to do with sickness. If we find a "flaw" in our anatomy, or an inefficiency...doesn't that create a problem? My understanding is that our eyeballs are not "designed" as well as they could have been. There are other eyes in the animal kingdom that have better designed eyes [efficiency]. We are susceptible to choking due to the fact that we eat and breathe through the same pipe etc. I'm curious how someone such as yourself views our design as "perfect".

Saying that our eyes are not desgined as well as they could been, doesn't mean that they way they are designed is flawed. I suppose we are not perfect because we can't fly, or have super strength?? Are our bodies flawed because they werent designed to move at the speed of light?

Why is having our mouth and windpipe close together a design flaw? Choking often comes from eating too much too fast, or not chewing your food properly or trying to laugh or talk while eating. Choking is less about design flaw and more about operator error.

[MorningGlory]

God is perfect and cannot create imperfect creatures. He cannot create imperfectly. The imperfections in humanity, such as, evil deeds, handicaps, disability, susceptibility to sickness, disease and death are the direct result of sin. Those things were not originally engineered into creation.

Ok, but what I'm getting at doesn't have anything to do with sickness. If we find a "flaw" in our anatomy, or an inefficiency...doesn't that create a problem? My understanding is that our eyeballs are not "designed" as well as they could have been. There are other eyes in the animal kingdom that have better designed eyes [efficiency]. We are susceptible to choking due to the fact that we eat and breathe through the same pipe etc. I'm curious how someone such as yourself views our design as "perfect".

I've read these EXACT talking points on this site before, Stargaze. How strange that you would repeat the former poster's words nearly verbatim. Whatever, you have to possess a big load of arrogance to question how GOD created you and say the design isn't good enough. Have you forgotten that you are a mere mortal or ....... what?

[Guest]

Why is the intent of the author an issue....

Because

Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. Proverbs 2:5-6

This Is Not

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

Your Average Author

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

[Guest]

True

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

So Very Very True

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

~

.... Whatever, you have to possess a big load of arrogance to question how GOD created you and say the design isn't good enough. Have you forgotten that you are a mere mortal or ....... what

..... I'm not arrogant, I'm not the one asserting that God made a "perfect" creation. This is Shiloh's statement and I'm not so sure that it's Biblical....

Dear One If You Should Ever Come To Desire To Know God

Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land. Hosea 4:1

And About His Almighty Power And His Awesome Love

Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.

Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Psalms 89:13-18

With Fear And With Trembling, Read His Holy Word

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:9-14

And Know He Is Gracious And Forgiving

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

~

Believe

And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. Lamentations 3:18-24

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

For the purposes of this discussion, no I'm not defining perfect as having all capabilities, I'm looking at what capabilities are present and are they designed the "best".

Well, if I follow what you are asking about how the human eye can be "perfect" if some animals have better eyesight, I could make the same argument about anything animals can do that we can't. There are anmials that are stronger, faster, that can fly, have better hearing, etc. Those capabilities are hardwired into them as part of their survival mechanism. They have natural predators and God gave them instinct and capabilities because they are anaimals that operate off of instinct. We have far greater mental capabilities and do not require the physical strength and capabilities that animals need to survive.

It seems in religious discussions, the concept of "perfect" gets mutated so badly that it no longer makes sense. To me, if something is perfect, you can't improve it any more, it's as good as it's going to get.

That is a Greek concept of perfect. In the biblical hebraic concept of perfection. You are perfect because you live and function the way you were made to function. A tree that has has gnarled branches is still perfect because it is a tree. It is what it is and exists the way it was made.

Do you really think the human body is unable to be improved upon? What is "perfect" about the human body? Our retinas are backwards, the blood vessels are in the way of the light that has to reach the sensitive rods and cones. The Octopus has the retina in the better location which is in FRONT of the blood vessels. The octopus has no blind spot as we do. So anyway, if my memory serves me correct, Genesis states that things were "good" not perfect. To look at the human body and say "voila! perfection!" is to redefine what perfection is to the point of making it useless.

In the Bible "perfect" is often the notion of being whole.

[Guest shiloh357]

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Very simply because evolution doesn't look like God, and doesn't act like God. It runs contrary to God's nature/character. God could not have created the process of Evolution because God is perfect and cannot create imperfection.

Here you're using the term to mean the state of something that has reached maximum functionality and efficiency. You're criticizing evolution and saying God couldn't be the author because evolution has to "work towards perfection" so to speak.

In evolution, you are never whole. You are always evolving. There is no "goal' or purpose in evolution. That is the difference. God created everything whole as He intended it to be. I could argue that before sin, we were "flawless." But that is not biblical concept of "perfection." It is the Greek concept.

You stated this earlier as well.

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The TOE assumes an imperfect world/order that must perfect itself through the process of natural selection. That which is unfit is removed/killed off so that what is stronger and more fit can survive and thrive. So you have a theory that assumes an imperfect world coming into being through wholly natural means, and you have the Bible which teaches that God created the world and all that is in it in a perfect and complete state.

Once again you really don't seem to be using the hebrew concept of "perfect", you're using the Shiloh version.

No, I said that God created the world in a perfect and complete (whole) state which embraces the hebraic concept.

You use the Greek version of perfect to criticize natural evolution and then protect the design of God by using the Hebrew definition. You also demonstrate that you don't understand evolution very well. Nowhere in the theory of evolution do we hear about organisms reaching "perfection", there is no such thing.

No I am using and have been using the hebraic concept. You are simply not competent to parse my words.

I am criticizing evolution on the hebraic concept. The Hebraic concept of perfection implies purpose and wholeness. Evolution provides no purpose or wholeness to creation. In fact, it gives the exact opposite.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 16 April 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

I have answered that numerous times. I am not going to keep answering it just because you don't like the answer.

But you have never answered it at all! All you've done this entire time is rave about how ToE is incompatible with Christianity after I told you multiple times that I'll agree that ToE is incompatible with Christianity so you can actually address the real issue of ToE being philosophically naturalistic. Philosophical naturalism means absolutely no supernatural anything, this includes deism which your entire response is summed up as 'it's not biblical'. Whether or not deism is compatible with the bible or Christianity is totally irrelevant to the issue.

My answer focused on the impersonal and wholly naturalistic component of the theory. That stands in stark contradiction to the personal and supernatural components of the biblical account of creation. If Philosophical naturalism means that there is no supernatural, that utlimately rules out God and the biblical account of Creation The TOE rules out ANY intelligent catalyst, supernatural or otherwise. It really isn't that difficult to see. The problem is that you are bent on muddying the waters about what philosophical naturalism means to the TOE.

For over a century, the TOE has been propped up by Evolutionists as THE alternative to Genesis 1 and 2 and possibly 3. The TOE is meant to usurp the notion that the earth came into existence through any supernatural means. That is why natural selection is WHOLY naturalistic. It encompasses naturalism methodologically and philosophically. I have discussed this with professors of science who know way more than you do on the topic.

Can you show that ToE is incompatible with deism? If you can't, than ToE is not philosophical naturalism as you claim.

Oh, they are completely compatible. However, I am not saying that the TOE is philosophical naturalism. The two are not interchangable. I am saying that the way the theory is rooted in philosophical naturalism. That is the worldview that theory is based on. Deism is completely compatible with the TOE but is not compatible with Philosophical Naturalism (hereafter, PNism).

The TOE says that Evolution is an impersonal, and wholly naturalistic, relying on no outside intelligence. In Deism, God does not serve as a catalyst for Evolution or natural selection.

Talking about how deism is incompatible with Christianity is a red herring, it has nothing to do with the subject.

No, its not. The point is that Deism and Evolution lead to the same conclusion. Neither are compatible with Christianity. The reason I had to bring up the incompatible nature of Desim with Christianity because you insist on lumping Christianity as an equal member in the pantheon of theistic ideas or philosophies. I was heading off your notion that if Evolution is compatible with Deism, it is not PNistic and is thus compatable with Christianity as well. I simply wanted show that Deism and Evolution both strike at the same areas of the Bible and contradict the Bible in the same areas that the TOE does.

Yet the entirety of science is wholly naturalistic, God is wholly precluded at every level in science. It is only outside the boundaries of science where you can add 'God controls gravity' and such.

More accurately, science is agnostic where God is concerned. Science can only speak to what exists in the natural world. It cannot address the supernatural. Science, for that reason, is incomplete in its attempts to answer the question about origins. Science can only take you so far. The universe was created supernaturally, but science can't speak to that, as it cannot detect the supernatural aspect of creation. That is why we need the Bible, to take up where science falls short.

Newton said, "Gravity can explain the motion of the planets but not who made created planets. God knows all that is and can be known." The Bible explains that God is Creator and that He created the world through the word of His mouth. He decreed it and it stood. God created gravity. That is not a scientific statement, but it is a true statement nonetheless. Everything God created He designed to testify Him and all of creation does testify of Him.

So far all I've really gotten from you is that ToE is incompatible with Christianity but gravity apparently isn't. That really has nothing to do with whether or not ToE is philosophical naturalism. You say that science is limited in scope and it cannot detect God, I agree, but then when I ask you why keep evolution in this realm of science whereas gravity is allowed to freely come out so you can say gravity is controlled by God, it seems your entire response is again ToE is incompatible with Christianity but gravity isn't. And again that has little to nothing to do with whether or not ToE is philosophical naturalism.

I didn't say the TOE was PNism. I said it is rooted in that worldview. The men who formulated the theory designed the theory to be compatble with a PNistic worldview by making sure that the theory was devoid of any connection to the supernatual, which includes God. That is why I say it is a theory rooted in PHism.

Christianity is not the summation of supernatural thought. There are the other major world religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Islam. As well as others like Sikhism, Wicca, Shintoism, and a whole host of other indigenous beliefs Christians all lump together as "pagan". Then you have various beliefs about the theistic God, but not just theism, but deism, pantheism, polytheism, and varying beliefs within each one of those. And of course you have the new-age stuff, some of which is just silly and other parts a bit more serious.

But Christianity is the only repository for God's truth. Only Jesus is the truth and only he is the answer and solution for the universal needs of mankind. Christianity alone has the Truth and no one else does.

And in order for ToE to be philosophical naturalism it must be antithetical to all of that and more too. Just saying ToE is incompatible with Christianity is not even close to cutting it.

That is not true. The TOE is philosophical naturalistic because it is designed to preclude the inovolvement of any deity or supernatural entity in the process. The TOE doesn't have to rule out the existence of any deity. PNism does.

[MorningGlory]

I've read these EXACT talking points on this site before, Stargaze. How strange that you would repeat the former poster's words nearly verbatim. Whatever, you have to possess a big load of arrogance to question how GOD created you and say the design isn't good enough. Have you forgotten that you are a mere mortal or ....... what?

I've only registered with this site once.

I'm not arrogant, I'm not the one asserting that God made a "perfect" creation. This is Shiloh's statement and I'm not so sure that it's Biblical.

I am not questioning how many times you've registered, Stargaze. I was just wondering where the Atheist Manifesto is printed or posted because the same talking points appear regularly and predictably here and on other Christian sites that allow atheist participation (they are few and far between). Shiloh is only stating the obvious; a perfect Creator cannot create an imperfect creation.

[Guest shiloh357]

The TOE is meant to usurp the notion that the earth came into existence through any supernatural means.

mmh, that is not evolution, it is gravity

Ciao

- viole

No it is not gravity. Gravity and Evolution are not parrellel concepts.

[~candice~]

Simple questions are not easy to answer if christianity and evolution were both true:

- does an immortal soul exist and who owns it?

- what is the source of moral values?

- who is responsible, if any, for a world indifferent to pain and death?

- does the concept of sin make sense?

- for what and whom exactly did Jesus die?

- are we humans the unavoidable result of evolution or were other solutions possible?

Etc.

Yes, an immortal soul exists, and God owns it.

God is the source of moral values.

Sin is the root of pain and death, and sin in man's heart is reflected in his indifference towards pain and death.

Yes, sin makes sense. It is a violation of His plan and will.

Jesus died out of love for us, to forge a way to reconcile man and God by bearing our sin on Himself.

God designed and created humans, we are the only species made in His image.