Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[BlindSeeker]

You still dont get it do you

you just even agreed and you dont get it... you have a good evening Gator lol

I get it all right. you are wrapped around a list of "don'ts" and want the rest of us to agree with you.

Being a Christian is not about a list of don'ts, it is about a list of "do's.

DO Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.

Do Love your neighbor as yourself.'

you can keep your dont's, I will keep my DO's!

Wow . . . talk about stopping the mouths of the gainsayers with irrefutable wisdom of words.

No answers to any questions, just one more little slam at the opponent and what sounds like "I'm taking my ball and going home."

It would even be nice to just be able to agree to disagree . . . but you aren't even that agreeable.

[Guest shiloh357]

Paul speaks of the Law passing away here in 2 Cor 3:

2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;

3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,

6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.

11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech

[Guest shiloh357]

The only law Y'shua fulfilled is that of sin and death. He defeated that law on the Cross. The Torah is still in effect.

Develop a Hebrew mindset instead of the Greek one, and I'm sure that I'm correct.

a.

so you are telling me that it is a sin for me to wear clothing of mixed fabric?

The Torah says you are to stone a child for being disobedient, when was the last time you did that?

The Torah is still in effect as a whole, but not necessarily applicable to each person in each dispensation. The entire OT is relevant to me as there is valuable theology and spiritual lessons that it possesses for the modern Christian. That does not necessarily mean that we are obligated to keep the law at every point due to the fact that we live within the dispensation of grace and are not living within the framework of the Old Testament economy.

[WolfBitn]

The only law Y'shua fulfilled is that of sin and death. He defeated that law on the Cross. The Torah is still in effect.

Develop a Hebrew mindset instead of the Greek one, and I'm sure that I'm correct.

a.

so you are telling me that it is a sin for me to wear clothing of mixed fabric?

The Torah says you are to stone a child for being disobedient, when was the last time you did that?

The Torah is still in effect as a whole, but not necessarily applicable to each person in each dispensation. The entire OT is relevant to me as there is valuable theology and spiritual lessons that it possesses for the modern Christian. That does not necessarily mean that we are obligated to keep the law at every point due to the fact that we live within the dispensation of grace and are not living within the framework of the Old Testament economy.

Youre prolly not far from where i am on this Shiloh

I feel the same in regard to relevance. Though we are saved by grace and not the law, youd still agree the law is our school teacher as paul said? And if we break these laws, we certainly find ourselves in sin do we not, in regard to the 10?

[WolfBitn]

Wow . . . talk about stopping the mouths of the gainsayers with irrefutable wisdom of words.

No answers to any questions, just one more little slam at the opponent and what sounds like "I'm taking my ball and going home."

It would even be nice to just be able to agree to disagree . . . but you aren't even that agreeable.

There is nothing left to answer. We cant even agree on what "the law" is, why go any further.

If you need a list of "dont's" to make you do the right thing, then by all means you have them.

I want to focus on the positive things about being a Christian, not on the things I cant do.

hey i showed you where God Himself called the 10 law... i cant help it if you want to disagree with God on this matter Gator... but its your perogative

[traveller]

This has been an interesting thread, fellas.

Please keep it civil.

(just a reminder)

[BlindSeeker]

Wow . . . talk about stopping the mouths of the gainsayers with irrefutable wisdom of words.

No answers to any questions, just one more little slam at the opponent and what sounds like "I'm taking my ball and going home."

It would even be nice to just be able to agree to disagree . . . but you aren't even that agreeable.

There is nothing left to answer. We cant even agree on what "the law" is, why go any further.

If you need a list of "dont's" to make you do the right thing, then by all means you have them.

I want to focus on the positive things about being a Christian, not on the things I cant do.

So, what your saying is, "No, I won't answer your question." Yet you come here and want to challenge WolfBitn's OP . . . but won't submit to point counter-point reasoning.

Ok.

I guess now it's just standing up and testifying now, is that it?

How do I know, I know because the Law of God is in my heart. I know because I have hidden the words of God in my heart, That I might not sin against Him. But I still do, and with His help I get better each day.

I know because the Lord is just and he keeps His word, and when the Lord said He would put His law in my mind, and write it on my hearts, he did just that. I don't need a list of "dont's" to tell me when I have messed up, the Holy Spirit is in me and He guides me.

[BlindSeeker]

This has been an interesting thread, fellas.

Please keep it civil.

(just a reminder)

Yes ma'm

[Guest shiloh357]

The only law Y'shua fulfilled is that of sin and death. He defeated that law on the Cross. The Torah is still in effect.

Develop a Hebrew mindset instead of the Greek one, and I'm sure that I'm correct.

a.

so you are telling me that it is a sin for me to wear clothing of mixed fabric?

The Torah says you are to stone a child for being disobedient, when was the last time you did that?

The Torah is still in effect as a whole, but not necessarily applicable to each person in each dispensation. The entire OT is relevant to me as there is valuable theology and spiritual lessons that it possesses for the modern Christian. That does not necessarily mean that we are obligated to keep the law at every point due to the fact that we live within the dispensation of grace and are not living within the framework of the Old Testament economy.

Youre prolly not far from where i am on this Shiloh

I feel the same in regard to relevance. Though we are saved by grace and not the law, youd still agree the law is our school teacher as paul said? And if we break these laws, we certainly find ourselves in sin do we not, in regard to the 10?

I would agree. John, in his first epistle, tells us that sin is defined as the transgression of the law. Any time we sin, it is because we have violated God's commandments.

Having said that, I do not think that the modern Christian sins if they do not keep the OT Sabbath or do not follow the OT dietary laws. It is my conviction that the civil and ceremonial aspects of the Torah are not applicable to the modern Christian. Those aspects of the Torah still possess fascinating types and shadows that point to Christ as well as help illuminate the plan of redemption, but that is the limit of relevance for us today. The only part of the Torah that is applicable in a practical way for the modern Christian pertains to the moral/ethical sections of the Torah, IMO.

I will add that I do not see any problem with nonJewish Christians and Messianic Jewish people choosing to keep Passover or the Sabbath or choosing to observe the other annual festivals God established in the OT so long as salvation by grace through faith remains front and center and Christ is the focus of such observances, I think there is fair degree of latitude in those areas. I, myself, LOVE the celebration of Passover and try to be part of it every year.

[BlindSeeker]

They were certainly there whan Cain Killed Able . . . and even though they were not there written in stone in Abraham's day either, yet God clearly gave witness to Abraham's obedience to them -

Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

No, the 10 commandments were not in place in the time of Cain nor the time of Abraham. Like it or not, the 10 commandments came about with Moses. The basic principles that the 10 commandments are built upon are timeless.

I don