loosing salvation

[godrulz]

So if WE can be eternally lost after having received everlasting life, then JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will finally be lost TOO because He dwells within each truly born-again Christian believer!! Then what a lugubrious & plodding NON-eternal "everlasting" relationship it will turn out to have been, yes? Saved today, lost tomorrow, "re-saved", then "re-lost", then...........I love it, Oh, I love it, but will all this play in Peoria?

There is a conditional element. Believers are secure in Christ. We can know NOW (present tense) that we have eternal life, despite our struggles (I Jn. 5:11-13). He is able to keep us from fallling (Jude 24-25). Rejecting OSAS does not mean we reject the security of the believer. Since salvation is relational and free, not deterministic and metaphysical (irreversible), it involves to parties. His faithfulness and grace does not preclude the possibility of our faithlessness and rejecting his grace (universalism and OSAS are not biblical unless we are robots).

Spiritual rebirth is analagous to, not identical with, physical birth (we cannot be unborn physically, but we can sever a relationship through godless unbelief). Our sonship is adoption, not physical birth into a family. A better analogy than kicking one out of the family (God does not do this with children, but we still can deny Him and fall away severing the vital connection to the Head...life is in Him, not inherent in us), is marriage. We can divorce someone and remarry a prostitute. There is no longer the former relationship, but it is severed. Sin does not sever our relationship with God (just intimacy/fellowship), but apostasy/unbelief is a unique sin and does so (unbelief is opposite of faith, the cond. of having grace).

So, those who don't know they are going to heaven can know and have his assurance. There is a difference with a believer struggling in areas and one who defiantly renounces Christ and His finished work and reverts to a preconversion state.

[Rhonda Lou]

So if WE can be eternally lost after having received everlasting life, then JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will finally be lost TOO because He dwells within each truly born-again Christian believer!! Then what a lugubrious & plodding NON-eternal "everlasting" relationship it will turn out to have been, yes? Saved today, lost tomorrow, "re-saved", then "re-lost", then...........I love it, Oh, I love it, but will all this play in Peoria?

Just as we deal with our children individually, God deals with His children individually.

We teach our children with the expectation that they will learn, grow, and mature.

As they grow we expect them to take on more responsibility according to their own

level of maturity, and as they take on more responsibility they are given more privileges.

When their responsibilities are not upheld their privileges are suspended, but our love for them is not.

We discipline them appropriately, but we do not disown them and kick them out of the family.

You are absolutely right. God will never kick us out of His family. Maybe you can help me understand something that is missing here. What if the child leaves and never returns, disowning the family and their name, forsaking his birthrights as if there was no family, as in being dead to him? Will the parents then force their will on the one who says they are dead to him?

You see, every example that has been given so far points to those who have not completely turned from Christ. I have not read in any of the posts where anyone has, in their heart, completely believed that there is no God. Even in my backslidden years, I knew God was real, but I just didn't want to obey, but rather, fulfill the desires of my flesh. Yet, there are those who once were His, that have said in their heart that there is no God. People just don't want to believe that this can happen, where I do. The reason is, if it is true, then it can happen to them and they are not willing to accept this possibility.

The child who forsakes the family, and treats it as though dead to him, is nontheless part of the family. However, in most cases where I have seen that happen, it is a snapshot of the present moment, and the child is angry about something, or hurt about something. God can work through that. In time that anger is buried so that the person may not even remember it, such as with my grandfather for 70 odd years. But, in his last month in the hospital, on his death bed, God put a Lutheran minister in the nursing home with him, the anger at God (actually at a clergyman) came out, and he was brought before God blameless. We never know what is or is not in a Christian's heart, but God does, and those who are truly saved, He WILL bring back. When we become Christians, we are given a new Spirit, and that Spirit DOES yearn to be saved, even when the flesh does not -- so it is not that God brings people kicking and screaming back into the kingdom. That is the way CS Lewis phrased what occured to him -- but he denounced God because God let his mom die. He was angry at God. He was surprised by joy when he was reunited with God because his salvation was real, and his spirit cried out for the joy of that salvation even as his flesh fought it.

I have also said that to be saved means that we have God living inside us. Anybody who would conclude intellectually, and maintain that belief even in death, was never saved to begin with because those who have the Holy Spirit in them would never make the claim that God is not real UNLESS at the moment they said it, they were angry with God. This is why we can never be a real judge of what is in the heart -- we just don't know all of the circumstances, and at times, we don't even know why we do things. I have also been through a period of backsliding. Also, within the last few months, I have doubted God's existence. But, I was angry at God because He wasn't answering my prayer as quickly as I wished, nor in the way I thought He would. I have confessed it, and repented of it, and am so happy that God and I are not happy. Where we don't know that the person ever turned back to God, I simply hope in the fact that I don't know everything, and it is possible that in the person's heart of hearts, they did (if I thought they'd been a Christian to begin with.) Nothing is ever hopeless -- we just won't KNOW until heaven. BUT, I do know that the Bible teaches that those indwelt by the Holy Spirit are Christians and that He was given them to guarantee change in this life, blameless-ness at the point of physical death, and a future in heaven. God keeps His word.

Rhonda

[pokemaughan]

So if WE can be eternally lost after having received everlasting life, then JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will finally be lost TOO because He dwells within each truly born-again Christian believer!! Then what a lugubrious & plodding NON-eternal "everlasting" relationship it will turn out to have been, yes? Saved today, lost tomorrow, "re-saved", then "re-lost", then...........I love it, Oh, I love it, but will all this play in Peoria?

I'm just curious how you explain verses like these:

Romans 11:11-24

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Hebrews 10:28-29

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Friends, theres a difference between isogesis and exegesis. Coming to the Word of God with your own preconceptions and ideas will not do- you must read the Word with an open heart and let IT change YOU, not the other way around.

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

You see, every example that has been given so far points to those who have not completely turned from Christ. I have not read in any of the posts where anyone has, in their heart, completely believed that there is no God. Even in my backslidden years, I knew God was real, but I just didn't want to obey, but rather, fulfill the desires of my flesh. Yet, there are those who once were His, that have said in their heart that there is no God. People just don't want to believe that this can happen, where I do. The reason is, if it is true, then it can happen to them and they are not willing to accept this possibility.

If anyone needs proof of that, all they need to do is go to The Outer Court. There are people who pass through there the all time stating, "I once believed but now I know it was a lie".

And as for parents disowning their children, it happens all the time. Just because we can't fathom the thought of a parent breaking off all ties with their child, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

Again, there is scripture were we are told that names will be removed from the Book of Life. Is this not God doing so?

I'll surely get blasted for this, but I believe that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life at the moment we are born to life here on earth.

Otherwise, those who die as infants, babies, and small children will go to hell without a chance to know God.

And, I don't believe God would allow us to be born here just to send us to hell.

However, if someone grows to the age of accountability (which I believe is different for each individual)

but NEVER accepts Jesus as Savior before they die that's when their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.

[pokemaughan]

I'll surely get blasted for this, but I believe that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life at the moment we are born to life here on earth.

Otherwise, those who die as infants, babies, and small children will go to hell without a chance to know God.

And, I don't believe God would allow us to be born here just to send us to hell.

However, if someone grows to the age of accountability (which I believe is different for each individual)

but NEVER accepts Jesus as Savior before they die that's when their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Excellent observation... you might catch some flak but at least the elementary idea of it makes sense.

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

The child who forsakes the family, and treats it as though dead to him, is nontheless part of the family.

Exactly! No matter what the cause of separation the child is still part of the family.

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

I'll surely get blasted for this, but I believe that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life at the moment we are born to life here on earth.

Otherwise, those who die as infants, babies, and small children will go to hell without a chance to know God.

And, I don't believe God would allow us to be born here just to send us to hell.

However, if someone grows to the age of accountability (which I believe is different for each individual)

but NEVER accepts Jesus as Savior before they die that's when their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Excellent observation... you might catch some flak but at least the elementary idea of it makes sense.

Thank you sir . . .

[OneLight]

You see, every example that has been given so far points to those who have not completely turned from Christ. I have not read in any of the posts where anyone has, in their heart, completely believed that there is no God. Even in my backslidden years, I knew God was real, but I just didn't want to obey, but rather, fulfill the desires of my flesh. Yet, there are those who once were His, that have said in their heart that there is no God. People just don't want to believe that this can happen, where I do. The reason is, if it is true, then it can happen to them and they are not willing to accept this possibility.

If anyone needs proof of that, all they need to do is go to The Outer Court. There are people who pass through there the all time stating, "I once believed but now I know it was a lie".

And as for parents disowning their children, it happens all the time. Just because we can't fathom the thought of a parent breaking off all ties with their child, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

Again, there is scripture were we are told that names will be removed from the Book of Life. Is this not God doing so?

I'll surely get blasted for this, but I believe that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life at the moment we are born to life here on earth.

Otherwise, those who die as infants, babies, and small children will go to hell without a chance to know God.

And, I don't believe God would allow us to be born here just to send us to hell.

However, if someone grows to the age of accountability (which I believe is different for each individual)

but NEVER accepts Jesus as Savior before they die that's when their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.

I have to disagree with your assumption.

Revelation 13:8

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[Guest man]

I'll surely get blasted for this, but I believe that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life at the moment we are born to life here on earth.

Otherwise, those who die as infants, babies, and small children will go to hell without a chance to know God.

And, I don't believe God would allow us to be born here just to send us to hell.

However, if someone grows to the age of accountability (which I believe is different for each individual)

but NEVER accepts Jesus as Savior before they die that's when their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.

When you speak of babies dying and going to hell, you're playing with peoples emotions, because that thought is unthinkable. No one, including myself, ever wants to consider that............and I don't. I don't believe God would punish a child for something they had no control over.......born or unborn.

For your comment, that I highlighted, to be true, it would mean that the letters to the churches in the Book of Revelation were written and addressed to the non-believer. Here are verses in context.

Revelation 3

1

[Guest man]

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

When someone walks away from God, are they still considered, "His own"?

If you want to use the analogy of parents and children, I can show you news article after news article where parents abused, butchered, and abandoned their children.