loosing salvation

[kross]

One does not have to assume predestination, determinism, decretal theology to explain God's providential hand on our lives (re: above anecdotes). God's will, purposes, intentions can also be rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

You should read Romans chapter 9 where Paul states that no-one has resisted GOD's will. GOD's will is always done.

[kross]

Then why would Christ tell us differently?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It seems to me that those who do not overcome will be removed, meaning that they were in the Book of Life at one point.

This passage doesn't say that JESUS will blot anyone out of the book of life. It is a promise that those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. You have to reverse engineer it to say that it implies that there are those who will not persevere and will be blotted out. In this case, you can not do that.

What it's actually saying is that those who do not endure to the end or perservere will be blotted out.

Believe whatever you want, but that's what it says.

No it does not. What it says is that those who persevere to the end will not be blotted out. Read it. That is what it says.

What it says to you...

Ok, well let me ask you a question.

What will happen to those who do not perservere?

There's only one logical answer.

Yes, that answer is that their name is not written in the book of life.

That seems to be the "pat answer" whenever this topic rolls around.

"They were never saved to begin with".

JESUS is making an incrdible promise to those of this church who make it to the end. HE is telling them that even if HE rejects the entire church as a whole, HE will not reject those who persevere to the end. HIS specific promise to them is that HE will not blot their name out of the book of life for they are the saved of GOD. This is the promise of assurance to a group of people who are surrounded by those who are not the saved and who have no place in the book of life that even though they are amoungst those who may be rejected, they will not be rejected.

See what you said there? "The entire church".

Now I have to ask, how many people in the "entire church" are working under the assumption that they are saved? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say all of them. Otherwise, what's the point..........right? So if they all believe they are saved but in the end are rejected, what does that do for your argument? That kinda throws your belief right out the window.

Now I have another question for you. How does one know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are one of the "chosen"? Is it because they read it in the bible? Well guess what? The "entire church" read it too, but you're saying that it's possible that they will all be rejected. How does that work?

It is a great promise to HIS steadfast and loyal. It is not a warning that if they do not persevere, they will be blotted out for the book of life has been sealed since the day the foundation of the earth was laid until the Lamb opens it on judgement day.

Then how do you explain this?

Exodus 32

33 And the LORD said to Moses,

[kross]

One does not have to assume predestination, determinism, decretal theology to explain God's providential hand on our lives (re: above anecdotes). God's will, purposes, intentions can also be rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

Of course it could mean that when GOD told them HE had a plan for their lives, that HE had a plan for their lives. It could mean that. Couldn't it? HE had a plan. HIS plan. Maybe?

Oh probably not. HE just said that to see what they would do.

[OneLight]

One does not have to assume predestination, determinism, decretal theology to explain God's providential hand on our lives (re: above anecdotes). God's will, purposes, intentions can also be rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

Of course it could mean that when GOD told them HE had a plan for their lives, that HE had a plan for their lives. It could mean that. Couldn't it? HE had a plan. HIS plan. Maybe?

Oh probably not. HE just said that to see what they would do.

It is very apparent that you do not believe in free will. If God did not stop people from sinning, what makes you think He is going to stop someone from turning their back on Him? The whole idea of free will is to have people who freely turn to Him and accept Him for who He is. Otherwise, He would of just created a group of people to follow Him, period. No original sin, no need for salvation, no need for anything but Him.

[Guest man]

Clarification, "the entire church as a whole" meaning that particular congregation, not the whole church. There will be many who will come to HIM in that day saying LORD, LORD..." there are churches full of people who have a religion, then there are those who have a relationship as adopted children. "You will know them by their fruit"

Do you realize that you just contradicted yourself?

You first say this,

Clarification, "the entire church as a whole" meaning that particular congregation, not the whole church.

And then you say this,

there are churches full of people who have a religion, then there are those who have a relationship as adopted children.

But aside from that, you say in the second quote there, that "there are churches full of people who have a religion, and then there are those who have a relationship as adopted children.". Now wouldn't it be safe to assume that all those people who have nothing but religion, believe in their hearts that they are saved?

They believe that they are saved by grace, but you are insinuating they are not.

If they believe they are saved and are not, what makes you different from them?

[kross]

One does not have to assume predestination, determinism, decretal theology to explain God's providential hand on our lives (re: above anecdotes). God's will, purposes, intentions can also be rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

Of course it could mean that when GOD told them HE had a plan for their lives, that HE had a plan for their lives. It could mean that. Couldn't it? HE had a plan. HIS plan. Maybe?

Oh probably not. HE just said that to see what they would do.

It is very apparent that you do not believe in free will. If God did not stop people from sinning, what makes you think He is going to stop someone from turning their back on Him? The whole idea of free will is to have people who freely turn to Him and accept Him for who He is. Otherwise, He would of just created a group of people to follow Him, period. No original sin, no need for salvation, no need for anything but Him.

You are correct in that I do not believe in free will. I believe the will of man is the weakest of three wills at work in the world. GOD's, Satan's and man's. If a man is left a captive to sin and Satan, he will not turn to GOD. If GOD, on the other hand, intervenes in the life of a captive, than that person will turn from sin and Satan to GOD. If GOD does nothing but nulify Satan's influence, than a man will serve his flesh. Thus we are given the HOLY SPIRIT to guide us so that, while we may devise our way, the LORD directs our steps.

Regardless of whether or not one believes in free will, it is certain that if GOD determines that one is to go left when one is intending to go right, GOD is able to give the perfect nudge or alteration in the current condition to cause that person to choose to go left.

GOD's promise in scripture is that all who call on HIM will be saved. That is a promise. It doesn't say that all who call on HIM will be put into a group that, if they are good enough, will be saved. There is more to calling on HIM than just speaking a word or two. "IF you believe in your heart that JESUS is the son of GOD, and confess HIM with your mouth, THAN you will be saved". That "believe in your heart" is a HUGE thing. Until one is "Born again", one cannot believe a spiritual truth, for they are spiritually discerned. JESUS and salvation are spiritual truths. They are not achieved from "Head Knowledge", they are Heart knowledge.

We are given the HOLY SPIRIT to seal us unto the day of redemption. We have recieved the spirit of adoption by which we cry out ABA FATHER. HE will not un-adopt us and HE will not allow those HE has saved, and in whom HE dwells, to be lost. The whole point of "In my weakness HE is made strong" is that when I am too weak to "Keep myself saved", HE is too strong to loose HIS grip. I do not need to keep holding on to HIS hand. HIS hand is holding onto me.

I know that we see these points of doctrine differently. I like these discussions because they bring out both points. I do not think I will ever change the mind of one who has studied and found a point of view that is different than mine. But i do know that my understanding is true, just as you know for certain that your understanding is true.

"Now unto HIM who is able to keep you from falling, and present you blameless before the throne, be allpower and glory and dominion for ever. Amen"

Why? Because it's all about JESUS. And HE IS ABLE to keep you from falling. HE is. Really. Able to keep you from falling. Back to you;

Is HE willing to keep you from falling?

[kross]

Clarification, "the entire church as a whole" meaning that particular congregation, not the whole church. There will be many who will come to HIM in that day saying LORD, LORD..." there are churches full of people who have a religion, then there are those who have a relationship as adopted children. "You will know them by their fruit"

Do you realize that you just contradicted yourself?

You first say this,

Clarification, "the entire church as a whole" meaning that particular congregation, not the whole church.

And then you say this,

there are churches full of people who have a religion, then there are those who have a relationship as adopted children.

But aside from that, you say in the second quote there, that "there are churches full of people who have a religion, and then there are those who have a relationship as adopted children.". Now wouldn't it be safe to assume that all those people who have nothing but religion, believe in their hearts that they are saved?

They believe that they are saved by grace, but you are insinuating they are not.

If they believe they are saved and are not, what makes you different from them?

It is not a contradiction. I pointed out to you that JESUS was speaking to a particular congregation. I than pointed out that there are churches with people who are not saved in them. Two different points. Sorry that you could not follow them. I will try to do better.

As I explained very clearly, I do not know what goes on in the heart and mind of someone who thinks they are saved and are not. I can not know that. I can only know what it is to be a saved, sanctified, called out child of the HOLY GOD.

It is equally likely that every Muslim thinks he is saved. Does that mean he is? The diference between religion and relationship is the difference between believing and knowing.

It is very simple, John says so. "I write these things that you may KNOW you have eternal life".

[godrulz]

One does not have to assume predestination, determinism, decretal theology to explain God's providential hand on our lives (re: above anecdotes). God's will, purposes, intentions can also be rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

You should read Romans chapter 9 where Paul states that no-one has resisted GOD's will. GOD's will is always done.

A deterministic, Calvinistic, omnicausal view is not what the passage teaches. In some things, God sovereignly, unilaterally acts without resistance. However, due to creating significant others with a say so (free moral agents), His will is not always done, by His sovereign choice. A risk-free, blueprint model is not evident in Scripture or reality, but a warfare model is seen. Jesus does not affirm everything (sin, sickness, Satan, death) as God's will, but opposes it (is Jesus opposing the will of the Father or those who act against it?). If God's will is always done, the world would NOT look like it does. Jeremiah 18 gives principles to help understand Rom. 9-11. It is not God's will that people perish (2 Peter 3:9). It is not His will that believers/unbelievers be immoral (I Thess. 4:1-12). Calvin was wrong to assume a 'one will' concept and a meticulous control model of sovereignty.

[Guest man]

It is not a contradiction. I pointed out to you that JESUS was speaking to a particular congregation. I than pointed out that there are churches with people who are not saved in them. Two different points. Sorry that you could not follow them. I will try to do better.

Yes, please continue, because you're making my arguments for me........whether you know it or not.

As I explained very clearly, I do not know what goes on in the heart and mind of someone who thinks they are saved and are not. I can not know that. I can only know what it is to be a saved, sanctified, called out child of the HOLY GOD.

So tell me, what is it that you are doing differently from the ones who believe and are not?

[kross]

One does not have to assume predestination, determinism, decretal theology to explain God's providential hand on our lives (re: above anecdotes). God's will, purposes, intentions can also be rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

You should read Romans chapter 9 where Paul states that no-one has resisted GOD's will. GOD's will is always done.

A deterministic, Calvinistic, omnicausal view is not what the passage teaches. In some things, God sovereignly, unilaterally acts without resistance. However, due to creating significant others with a say so (free moral agents), His will is not always done, by His sovereign choice. A risk-free, blueprint model is not evident in Scripture or reality, but a warfare model is seen. Jesus does not affirm everything (sin, sickness, Satan, death) as God's will, but opposes it (is Jesus opposing the will of the Father or those who act against it?). If God's will is always done, the world would NOT look like it does. Jeremiah 18 gives principles to help understand Rom. 9-11. It is not God's will that people perish (2 Peter 3:9). It is not His will that believers/unbelievers be immoral (I Thess. 4:1-12). Calvin was wrong to assume a 'one will' concept and a meticulous control model of sovereignty.

Why you lay this on Calvin? The Sinod of Dort, the westminster confessions, the Belgic confessions, ETC ETC ETC.

As you so well stated, the very act of a soveriegn GOD is to choose to intervene or choose not to. If HE chooses not to, than HE has chosen to let a situation play out to the conclusion HE knows it will come to. Thus, it is still HIS will that it get to that place. If it were not, than as you have stated, HE unilaterally "ACTS WITHOUT RESISTANCE"

Now, I am not going to get caught up in this debate with you. You are one who clearly has been taught that one doctrine is absolutely wrong and what you believe is the only truth. Good for you. Keep taking your stand and stand by your guns. GOD will let us know in the end.