Who was Jesus speaking to?

[OneLight]

I hope I have not confused you by my statement of walking as Christ walked. We could never as He was in this lifetime, but like those He chose, there are some who He knows will lay all they are down from Him. I imagine that those who do would allow Him to live completely in and through them, so all that others see is Christ. This is what I meant.

Beloved Brother, I am easily confused ... I am so amazed by the power and glory of our Lord and that He is able to forgive me for all I've said and thought and done that was not pleasing - I cannot ever hope to think I could possibly walk as He walked... I have - in my spiritual life - total peace now. I pray daily that others do see His Love in me and that I am able to be a conduit for Him. I explained one time to you that I did not often participate in Biblical theorem and discussion, because I feel so unable to explain my feelings and thoughts - I'm all thumbs here....

LOL .. you are more then you think. One thing we all do is look at us through our own eyes and not His. We can't, until we die to ourselves and allow Him to live in and through us. Then we see that we are just a vessel created for His use, capable of being what ever He wills us to be. For some, it will be a prayer warrior, others a teacher, others a preacher, and so on. We are told to seek the greatest of gifts, but while doing this, we need to humble ourselves enough to accept His will for us.

If you are all thumbs, then you should be able to give yourself the "thumbs Up!"

[Miss Elly]

I like to keep things simple, cause I'm kind of a simple person. My comment is composed first of several questions:

1. Are you a disciple of Jesus?

2. Do you have a desire to do the greater works than Jesus did?

If you are, then I don't see why ANYONE who desires these things should not be able to accomplish these "greater works that Jesus did". The condemning part is in ourselves, and MYSELF included....do we really want to draw nigh enough to Christ to do his service? The hammer of conviction on this issue falls hard on me and I cannot judge anyone else. Jesus loves all of his children, no matter what our gifts and callings in Christ are. However, is it not in OURSELVES that we don't keep this desire uppermost? We certainly can't blame God for it, because we do not seek the power of God in all of its fullness. Remember the scripture that says some will bear fruit 100 fold, others less. I pray for all and myself as well that we will have a burning heart for God and his will. God bless everyone.

[Guest shiloh357]

It is my conviction that the context pertains to a conversation between Jesus and His disciples/soon to be Apostles. They are the primary audience to whom His words are being directed. The promises are primarily apostolic. That is not to say there cannot be a wider application for all believers, but the immediate context must be kept in mind.

"Greater works" is not limited to Jesus' miracles. Jesus does not refer to "greater" in terms of nature, but in quanity and include more than just miracles but the whole of His ministry (4:34; 5:36; 10:32; 17:4). This was true in terms of scope as the aposltes' ministries fulfilled Jesus' promise many times over in that while Jesus' limited His scope of ministry to within the borders of Israel, the apostles had a much further reach which was only possible because of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

If I read this correctly, you believe ti wrong to teach/preach that because we have the Holy Spirit in us, we should be able to do all the Christ did? Miracles, raising the dead, healing, casting out demons, and being able to tell someone everything they did in their life? This is basically what this preacher was saying.

No, what I said was that "greater works" was not limited to miracles. I didn't exclude the supernatual signs. I simply stated that Jesus was referring to all of His works.

Whatever God chooses to do through any believer is surely fine with me. People will often read that verse and their mind tends to automatically think in terms of Jesus' miracles but they need to see that Jesus was simply saying that the ministry of the apostles would actually have greater impact due to the greater scope worldwide. The fruit of their ministry is still having that same impact today.

[OneLight]

I like to keep things simple, cause I'm kind of a simple person. My comment is composed first of several questions:

1. Are you a disciple of Jesus?

2. Do you have a desire to do the greater works than Jesus did?

If you are, then I don't see why ANYONE who desires these things should not be able to accomplish these "greater works that Jesus did". The condemning part is in ourselves, and MYSELF included....do we really want to draw nigh enough to Christ to do his service? The hammer of conviction on this issue falls hard on me and I cannot judge anyone else. Jesus loves all of his children, no matter what our gifts and callings in Christ are. However, is it not in OURSELVES that we don't keep this desire uppermost? We certainly can't blame God for it, because we do not seek the power of God in all of its fullness. Remember the scripture that says some will bear fruit 100 fold, others less. I pray for all and myself as well that we will have a burning heart for God and his will. God bless everyone.

Here is my thoughts. Not all that are His disciple walk in the same closeness. Jesus had many that followed His teachings, but chose only a few that He taught separately. These are those whom He could trust with all that He had to give them. Not all who try succeed. I know I fall short when I surrender to Him, even though my heart cries out to Jesus to use me in every way. Desire is the first step, and the driving force, in a long journey, where surrender is the action behind the desire.

The explanation I gave for how the preacher brought this message forth was one that would place a false hope in those who want to believe that they can do all that Christ did. He emphasized on the power behind the acts of Christ, which I forgot to add before ... sorry, and that we have them also because we have the Holy Spirit. You see, his message was one more like, if you are a Christian, you should be able to do all that Christ did through the same power Christ had. Do you see this as the truth? Should we all be able to raise people from the dead, cleanse the leper, feed thousands with a few fish and a couple loafs of bread and heal the blind from birth?

[OneLight]

It is my conviction that the context pertains to a conversation between Jesus and His disciples/soon to be Apostles. They are the primary audience to whom His words are being directed. The promises are primarily apostolic. That is not to say there cannot be a wider application for all believers, but the immediate context must be kept in mind.

"Greater works" is not limited to Jesus' miracles. Jesus does not refer to "greater" in terms of nature, but in quanity and include more than just miracles but the whole of His ministry (4:34; 5:36; 10:32; 17:4). This was true in terms of scope as the aposltes' ministries fulfilled Jesus' promise many times over in that while Jesus' limited His scope of ministry to within the borders of Israel, the apostles had a much further reach which was only possible because of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

If I read this correctly, you believe ti wrong to teach/preach that because we have the Holy Spirit in us, we should be able to do all the Christ did? Miracles, raising the dead, healing, casting out demons, and being able to tell someone everything they did in their life? This is basically what this preacher was saying.

No, what I said was that "greater works" was not limited to miracles. I didn't exclude the supernatual signs. I simply stated that Jesus was referring to all of His works.

Whatever God chooses to do through any believer is surely fine with me. People will often read that verse and their mind tends to automatically think in terms of Jesus' miracles but they need to see that Jesus was simply saying that the ministry of the apostles would actually have greater impact due to the greater scope worldwide. The fruit of their ministry is still having that same impact today.

Ok ... I can see this. Do you see how the preacher was bringing the verse to the congregation wrong then?

[nebula]

I sat in church last Wednesday and heard a preacher tell everyone that we can all stand on the verse of John 14:12, where Jesus told His disciples; "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

Question: if this verse is for the 12 only, why did Jesus say, "He who believes in Me," rather than, "as long as you believe in Me"?

[Guest yod]

One thing that should probably be added....

greco-church tends to see this as if He is saying that we will individually possess super-human powers. Well, yes and no.

We have the Authority of the Creator as long as we don't step out from under the authority (anointing) He has released to us in any given area.

Where we are faithful, we will have His authority.

Where we are not, we will fail because we are no longer abiding in the Vine.

[Guest shiloh357]

I like to keep things simple, cause I'm kind of a simple person. My comment is composed first of several questions:

1. Are you a disciple of Jesus?

2. Do you have a desire to do the greater works than Jesus did?

If you are, then I don't see why ANYONE who desires these things should not be able to accomplish these "greater works that Jesus did". The condemning part is in ourselves, and MYSELF included....do we really want to draw nigh enough to Christ to do his service? The hammer of conviction on this issue falls hard on me and I cannot judge anyone else. Jesus loves all of his children, no matter what our gifts and callings in Christ are. However, is it not in OURSELVES that we don't keep this desire uppermost? We certainly can't blame God for it, because we do not seek the power of God in all of its fullness. Remember the scripture that says some will bear fruit 100 fold, others less. I pray for all and myself as well that we will have a burning heart for God and his will. God bless everyone.

Here is my thoughts. Not all that are His disciple walk in the same closeness. Jesus had many that followed His teachings, but chose only a few that He taught separately. These are those whom He could trust with all that He had to give them. Not all who try succeed. I know I fall short when I surrender to Him, even though my heart cries out to Jesus to use me in every way. Desire is the first step, and the driving force, in a long journey, where surrender is the action behind the desire.

The explanation I gave for how the preacher brought this message forth was one that would place a false hope in those who want to believe that they can do all that Christ did. He emphasized on the power behind the acts of Christ, which I forgot to add before ... sorry, and that we have them also because we have the Holy Spirit. You see, his message was one more like, if you are a Christian, you should be able to do all that Christ did through the same power Christ had. Do you see this as the truth? Should we all be able to raise people from the dead, cleanse the leper, feed thousands with a few fish and a couple loafs of bread and heal the blind from birth?

Jesus was speaking in a general sense. The idea was that the overall tenor of His ministry would be recognized in the ministry of His aposltes and the in the believing community at large. I don't think Jesus was saying that we would walk on water, absolve sins, command nature or be able to see into the hearts of others. Some of the things Jesus did were done by Divine perogative. We should not expect to do those things. He simply meant that as His followers spread the gospel, their ministry both in the supernatural and in terms of reaching out to the lost, their ministry would be characteristic of His ministry.

[OneLight]

I like to keep things simple, cause I'm kind of a simple person. My comment is composed first of several questions:

1. Are you a disciple of Jesus?

2. Do you have a desire to do the greater works than Jesus did?

If you are, then I don't see why ANYONE who desires these things should not be able to accomplish these "greater works that Jesus did". The condemning part is in ourselves, and MYSELF included....do we really want to draw nigh enough to Christ to do his service? The hammer of conviction on this issue falls hard on me and I cannot judge anyone else. Jesus loves all of his children, no matter what our gifts and callings in Christ are. However, is it not in OURSELVES that we don't keep this desire uppermost? We certainly can't blame God for it, because we do not seek the power of God in all of its fullness. Remember the scripture that says some will bear fruit 100 fold, others less. I pray for all and myself as well that we will have a burning heart for God and his will. God bless everyone.

Here is my thoughts. Not all that are His disciple walk in the same closeness. Jesus had many that followed His teachings, but chose only a few that He taught separately. These are those whom He could trust with all that He had to give them. Not all who try succeed. I know I fall short when I surrender to Him, even though my heart cries out to Jesus to use me in every way. Desire is the first step, and the driving force, in a long journey, where surrender is the action behind the desire.

The explanation I gave for how the preacher brought this message forth was one that would place a false hope in those who want to believe that they can do all that Christ did. He emphasized on the power behind the acts of Christ, which I forgot to add before ... sorry, and that we have them also because we have the Holy Spirit. You see, his message was one more like, if you are a Christian, you should be able to do all that Christ did through the same power Christ had. Do you see this as the truth? Should we all be able to raise people from the dead, cleanse the leper, feed thousands with a few fish and a couple loafs of bread and heal the blind from birth?

Jesus was speaking in a general sense. The idea was that the overall tenor of His ministry would be recognized in the ministry of His aposltes and the in the believing community at large. I don't think Jesus was saying that we would walk on water, absolve sins, command nature or be able to see into the hearts of others. Some of the things Jesus did were done by Divine perogative. We should not expect to do those things. He simply meant that as His followers spread the gospel, their ministry both in the supernatural and in terms of reaching out to the lost, their ministry would be characteristic of His ministry.

This I agree with also, but still have a hard time with the supernatural. I completely believe in the gifts, which is a controversial subject in itself, but I disagree that we will be able to do the same miracles and signs the Apostles did. They worked within this realm of the supernatural all the time, as they did His will, To me, that is what the preacher was preaching.

[OneLight]

One thing that should probably be added....

greco-church tends to see this as if He is saying that we will individually possess super-human powers. Well, yes and no.

We have the Authority of the Creator as long as we don't step out from under the authority (anointing) He has released to us in any given area.

Where we are faithful, we will have His authority.

Where we are not, we will fail because we are no longer abiding in the Vine.

Can you expound on this a little more? I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't like to assume. Thanks Bro!