Romans 9

[EricH]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

Those He "called" are the Gentiles . . .

Paul begins speaking to Jews in Romans 7:1 because of the problem in betweeen Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome-

Ro 7:1 Know ye not,

brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul continues his address to his Jewish brethren to the end of chapter 9 calling on Hosea as a witness to his words -

Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is not dealing with individual salvation . . . but salvation available to all those of every kindred, nation and tongue.

Some have taken this route (suggesting a narrowing of the audience here) but it is not likely what Paul had in mind. Newly converted gentil believers would have been exposed to the OT law early in their Chrisitian instruction. Also, if Paul would have intended to narrow his focus, most greek scholars agree that he would have used a different construction. There is not enough good evidence to support this conclusion (certainly not enough to base one's interpretation on it)

[BlindSeeker]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

Those He "called" are the Gentiles . . .

Paul begins speaking to Jews in Romans 7:1 because of the problem in betweeen Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome-

Ro 7:1 Know ye not,

brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul continues his address to his Jewish brethren to the end of chapter 9 calling on Hosea as a witness to his words -

Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is not dealing with individual salvation . . . but salvation available to all those of every kindred, nation and tongue.

Some have taken this route (suggesting a narrowing of the audience here) but it is not likely what Paul had in mind. Newly converted gentil believers would have been exposed to the OT law early in their Chrisitian instruction. Also, if Paul would have intended to narrow his focus, most greek scholars agree that he would have used a different construction. There is not enough good evidence to support this conclusion (certainly not enough to base one's interpretation on it)

All through Romans Paul is going back and forth from Jew to Gentile addressing issues amongst them . . . but dealing harder with the Jews because "that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them" and to whom much is given much is required because they had the "advantage . . . because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

Nevertheless Paul pointedly challenges the Jews with the simple question, "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also" and are again reminded that Abraham was made "a father of many nations."

He address them with the fact that all men die because of Adam's sin just as all men can live because of Jesus' death.

In chapter 10 Paul affirms his "heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved," but continues by stating "there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him."

He continues to direct strong words to the Jews saying "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

He say concerning them "Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Yet despite having the oracles of God they rejected his word and are as a nation without excuse. Therefore God was fulfilling His word through the prophets of old and gathering in the Gentiles -

Ro. 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

But Paul assures them that while the nation is to be judge, the individual Jew still has access to God and He will preserve a remnant -

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul then reminds them how this was all written and foretold -

Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

But again Paul assure the Jews that this falling away of the Jews will not be a cast away of them altogether by God -

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Paul then turns his conversation to the Gentiles and uses his ministry unto them and their comong to God through Christ as a means to stir up his own kinsmen after the flesh -

Ro 11:2 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13

For I speak to you Gentiles

, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

After cautioning the Gentiles to be humble and instructing them both to be mindful of each other he states would they be "one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God."

He then further states of the Gentiles -

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

And more -

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Paul then closes with mention of his return to Jerusalem to minister to the needs of the saints (mainly Jewish) there with that he has gathered from the Gentile churches.

Ro 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

26 For it hath pleased them

[Gentiles]

of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

So, I acknowledge your rebuttal EricH that "it is not likely what Paul had in mind," but I will stick nonetheless with my previous post and the scriptures I have provided for my position.

[Guest shiloh357]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

"Who He predestined..." Predestined for what? Well, let's look at v. 29:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

(Rom 8:29-30)

God knows who will and will not be saved. He knows in advance who will reject the gospel when it is presented to them. He also knows who will receive it. Those whom God foreknows will receive the gospel, he predestines to conformed to the image of His Son. It does not say he predestines to them to salvation.

In these verses, predestination is linked to what happens AFTER a person is saved. It pertains to what God has predestined for the person He knows will receive the gospel. Neither of these verses claim that God predestined who will or will not be saved, but that He predestines that those who are saved will be conformed to the image of His Son.

It is wrong to change the order of events. God foreknows who will receive the Gospel. He has predestined that all who receive the gospel will be conformed to the image of His Son (sancification). He calls them, justifies them and will also glorify them (the meaning of "adoption" in Rom. 8). Nothing in these verses claim that God predetermines whom He will or will not allow to be saved.

[kross]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

Those He "called" are the Gentiles . . .

Paul begins speaking to Jews in Romans 7:1 because of the problem in betweeen Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome-

Ro 7:1 Know ye not,

brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul continues his address to his Jewish brethren to the end of chapter 9 calling on Hosea as a witness to his words -

Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is not dealing with individual salvation . . . but salvation available to all those of every kindred, nation and tongue.

So, your understanding is that this predestination is that GOD predestined that HE would call the Gentiles? So all the gentiles are referred to as "The Called" in 8:28? And 8:30 is then saying that all of the ones HE called, HE also justified and glorified? So, what you are telling me is that Paul is teaching universal atonement?

I do not think so.

Because it states very clearly that those HE predestined, HE called and those HE called HE saved.

[kross]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

"Who He predestined..." Predestined for what? Well, let's look at v. 29:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

(Rom 8:29-30)

God knows who will and will not be saved. He knows in advance who will reject the gospel when it is presented to them. He also knows who will receive it. Those whom God foreknows will receive the gospel, he predestines to conformed to the image of His Son. It does not say he predestines to them to salvation.

In these verses, predestination is linked to what happens AFTER a person is saved. It pertains to what God has predestined for the person He knows will receive the gospel. Neither of these verses claim that God predestined who will or will not be saved, but that He predestines that those who are saved will be conformed to the image of His Son.

It is wrong to change the order of events. God foreknows who will receive the Gospel. He has predestined that all who receive the gospel will be conformed to the image of His Son (sancification). He calls them, justifies them and will also glorify them (the meaning of "adoption" in Rom. 8). Nothing in these verses claim that God predetermines whom He will or will not allow to be saved.

That's one way to look at it. I think it is wrong, but it is one way to look at it.

That really is that whole idea of GOD predestinating someone to do something they were going to do anyway. That really makes no sense to me. My understanding of greek is limitted, but what study I have done on the greek word for "Foreknew/foreknow" indicates something fully initiated by GOD without any indication of there being a reason for HIM to choose that particular person. It is similar to the same statement GOD makes about Abraham when HE says, "Have I known him that I should hide this thing from him" This "Known" like the "foreknown" is the same meaning, which is, "Have I determined to have this relationship with him..."

[BlindSeeker]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

Those He "called" are the Gentiles . . .

Paul begins speaking to Jews in Romans 7:1 because of the problem in betweeen Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome-

Ro 7:1 Know ye not,

brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul continues his address to his Jewish brethren to the end of chapter 9 calling on Hosea as a witness to his words -

Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is not dealing with individual salvation . . . but salvation available to all those of every kindred, nation and tongue.

So, your understanding is that this predestination is that GOD predestined that HE would call the Gentiles? So all the gentiles are referred to as "The Called" in 8:28? And 8:30 is then saying that all of the ones HE called, HE also justified and glorified? So, what you are telling me is that Paul is teaching universal atonement?

I do not think so.

Because it states very clearly that those HE predestined, HE called and those HE called HE saved.

Amen, and I being a Gentile I'm glad I am saved.

So . . . now we both know each others opinion . . . though I took time to establish my own position with the scriptures in question and the context from which they were taken.

But I do understand you do not think so.

Did you read the whole thing? Or did you just stop where you quoted?

[kross]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

Those He "called" are the Gentiles . . .

Paul begins speaking to Jews in Romans 7:1 because of the problem in betweeen Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome-

Ro 7:1 Know ye not,

brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul continues his address to his Jewish brethren to the end of chapter 9 calling on Hosea as a witness to his words -

Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is not dealing with individual salvation . . . but salvation available to all those of every kindred, nation and tongue.

So, your understanding is that this predestination is that GOD predestined that HE would call the Gentiles? So all the gentiles are referred to as "The Called" in 8:28? And 8:30 is then saying that all of the ones HE called, HE also justified and glorified? So, what you are telling me is that Paul is teaching universal atonement?

I do not think so.

Because it states very clearly that those HE predestined, HE called and those HE called HE saved.

Amen, and I being a Gentile I'm glad I am saved.

So . . . now we both know each others opinion . . . though I took time to establish my own position with the scriptures in question and the context from which they were taken.

But I do understand you do not think so.

Did you read the whole thing? Or did you just stop where you quoted?

I read what you wrote, I understand how you come to what you believe. I do not agree with your analysys. But it does give me more to work from while I look into what you have stated.

[BlindSeeker]

I read what you wrote, I understand how you come to what you believe. I do not agree with your analysys. But it does give me more to work from while I look into what you have stated.

Very well then . . . for now we know were we both stand . . . for now.

Peace.

[Guest shiloh357]

That really is that whole idea of GOD predestinating someone to do something they were going to do anyway. That really makes no sense to me.

No, it is not. It is God predestining what He is going to do in them. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the ultimate goal. That is God's agenda for us. There is not one verse that says otherwise. Predestination always pertains to what God predestines for Christians, not predestinating sinners to be Christians.

My understanding of greek is limitted, but what study I have done on the greek word for "Foreknew/foreknow" indicates something fully initiated by GOD without any indication of there being a reason for HIM to choose that particular person.

That would be a bit redundant if foreknowledge also means "to choose in advance," given that the next word "predestined" means essentially the same thing. I will grant that it might mean that in other places and in different contexts, but makes no sense to read the verse as "those he foreordained, he also foreordained..." It is obvious from the wording that foreknew simply means that God knew in advance who would receive the gospel and He has foreordained or predestined those people to be conformed to the image of His son. The text flows much more naturally that way.

It is similar to the same statement GOD makes about Abraham when HE says, "Have I known him that I should hide this thing from him" This "Known" like the "foreknown" is the same meaning, which is, "Have I determined to have this relationship with him..."

No, it is really not like that at all.

[kross]

My understanding of greek is limitted, but what study I have done on the greek word for "Foreknew/foreknow" indicates something fully initiated by GOD without any indication of there being a reason for HIM to choose that particular person.

That would be a bit redundant if foreknowledge also means "to choose in advance," given that the next word "predestined" means essentially the same thing. I will grant that it might mean that in other places and in different contexts, but makes no sense to read the verse as "those he foreordained, he also foreordained..." It is obvious from the wording that foreknew simply means that God knew in advance who would receive the gospel and He has foreordained or predestined those people to be conformed to the image of His son. The text flows much more naturally that way.

Not really. For GOD to decide whom HE knows as a personal relationship, followed by determining to predestine them to salvation, is not quite the same thing. It is, however the natural progression from establishing a knowledge of them, predestinating them to be transformed to the likeness of CHRIST, calling those who are so predestined and then, when they answer that call, establishing them by both justifying and glorifying then at that time.

If you were going to lay it out, then you would establish that GOD knew them before HE predestined them. After all, how would HE predestine people HE did not even know?