Romans 9

[kross]

If you look up the words in "for many are called, but few are chosen" you will see that it could/should say, "For many are called, but few are The called"

Not according to my Bible or references . . . but I provided online one

[kross]

GOD's love was irresistible to me. I can ot imagine that anyone touched by the love of GOD could not be changed.

Really? Because most of humanity resists the love of God all of the time.

Most of humanity has never felt the love of GOD, nor can they for they are carnal and GOD is Spirit.

After all, that is how HE calls those HE predestined. I love HIM because HE first loved me is like saying "the window broke because the rock hit it hard enough to break it. There simply is no other effect that can come from the cause. The word because, despite it's current weaker understanding, indicates the only response possible. My love for HIM was caused by HIS love for me.There is no other response possible. It is a definite, specific statement of cause and effect. There is no other response possible to the particular stimulous other than what the response is. This is not only true with the english word "because" It is even more true of the picture word hoti from the greek.

You are taking that further than the text allows. The Bible does not say that loving God is the irresistable response to God's love. In fact, the text of 1 John 4:19 reads thus: "We love because He first loved us." The point in the context of 1 John 4 is that the greatest evidence of God's love is our love for the bretheren. If we hate the bretheren we cannot claim to love God. Nothing in the text inidcates that love is compulsory because of God's love. Rather our love reflects His love.

You state that GOD doesn't make the vessels for dishonor that are going to show HIS wrath. I believe that is exactly what PAul states when he says that GOD makes one vessel for dishonor and one for honor.

That is not what the text says, and it makes a differentiation between between vessels God predestines for different kinds of service and those vessels that have fitted themselves for wrath and made themselves the object of God's wrath.

One vessel that will show HIS wrath and one that will show HIS mercy. Ro 9:22-24

Those verses do not say that God made them fit for wrath or mercy. That is something you are penciling into the text. You are not really defending Scripture. You are defending the view you are trying to insert into Scripture. The notion that God creates some to be destroyed contradicts His revealed character. God may allow people to rebel and then judge them for that, but He does not force them to rebel and MAKE them objects of wrath.

What these verses state is that GOD makes some for honor and some for dishonor. I do not think Paul is claiming that those who are made for dishonor are going to be in the position of dishonor until they take their rightful place in HEaven. I think he is saying that they will be vessels of dishonor until they end up in Hell.

I do not have a problem with the idea that you cannot separate GOD from HIS creation.

??? What???? What are you talking about?

HE made it and HE is responsible for how it turned out. I do not stand in judgement of HIM because of what HIS creation is. HE has the right to create what HE chooses. Your point here is like saying an artist has no resposibility for his art. Or an inventor can not be held responsible for what his invention does. Except with GOD, HE knew evrything that would be before HE even create anything. So, HE is responsible for what HIS creation is.

The idea that sin was hardwired into creation is simply not biblical and to date, you have never actually offered any Scriptural support for that notion just a lot of human reasoning. You subscribe to an unbiblical hyper-sovereignty view that falls outside the pale of the Scripture and biblical, New Testament Christianity.

This is the point where the conversation is likely to degenerate. I can pull out the scriptures that indicate that GOD has been and always will be in control of HIS creation, That HE is soveriegn, and even that HE "creates the all things for HIMSELF, even the wicked..." Prov 16:4 jsut as I can clearly see and state that Paul is making the same claim, that the reason for creation is to show all there is of GOD, and we will see that at the judgement seat and not before.

This does, after all, return to the very first question and statement of this thread. Who are you, O man, to reply aginst GOD? Does HE not have the right...?

Yes, but that question pertains to complaints pertaining to God's choice of type of service one will carry out and the position one holds in the Body of Christ. It does not come as response to the unbiblical assertion that God chooses some people to go to hell and thus we are out of line for challenging it.

This is where it gets confusing. You seem to interpret the idea of vessel of dishonor as being in a position of honor, just less honor. They are still the saved of GOD but is less honorable service. Since there is no service to JESUS that is less honorable than another, I can not see this logic. Plus, Paul clearly deliniates between the vessel created for dishonor/ fitted for destruction/vessels of wrath and those that are created for honor/mercy. He further explains that the one created for mercy are those whom GOD called.

Yes, the vessels fitted for wrath have fitted themselves by virtue of sin, as we all have fitted ourselves for wrath (Eph 2:1) They were, however, still created for dishonor. Those created for honor, even though they conducted themselves in the same manner as the dishonorable, GOD called into fellowship with HIMSELF establishing them as The Called that Paul states were predestined to this calling.

It seems that these discussions always come back to Paul clearly asking and answerring that question, which proves to me that is exactly what Paul is teaching.

It would not appear that you are accurately reflecting the point Paul was making. Paul was not a hyper-calvinist.

No, Calvin was a hyper Paulian.

[BlindSeeker]

If you look up the words in "for many are called, but few are chosen" you will see that it could/should say, "For many are called, but few are The called"

Not according to my Bible or references . . . but I provided online one

[Guest shiloh357]

What these verses state is that GOD makes some for honor and some for dishonor. I do not think Paul is claiming that those who are made for dishonor are going to be in the position of dishonor until they take their rightful place in HEaven. I think he is saying that they will be vessels of dishonor until they end up in Hell.

You are perverting the Scriptures to mean that "dishonor" means "hellbound." That is, that God makes some for dishonor because he intends to destroy them. That dooes not fit the line of thought.

Romans 9 has nothing to do with who is or isn't saved. Paul is defending God's sovereign choice to put a blindness upon Israel to who Jesus was.

This is the point where the conversation is likely to degenerate. I can pull out the scriptures that indicate that GOD has been and always will be in control of HIS creation, That HE is soveriegn, and even that HE "creates the all things for HIMSELF, even the wicked..." Prov 16:4 jsut as I can clearly see and state that Paul is making the same claim, that the reason for creation is to show all there is of GOD, and we will see that at the judgement seat and not before.

Yeah, but you take God's sovereignty to a place the Bible doesn't. You have a hyper-sovereignty view that says that God controls every act, thought, and intends every event that happens, good or bad. That is not how the Bible presents God's sovereignty.

God governs the universe and eventually His purposes and plans will be realized for this world and for humanity. God allows man to sin, to act against His will, but there is nothing man can do, no craft or skill or degree of ingenuity inherent in humanity can thwart God's purposes and agenda because God is sovereign. God does not ordain every action, thought and choice, but rather uses them for his purposes and plans.

Your unbiblical view of sovereignty makes God the author of sin and has God approving of actions that defy His nature and revealed will.

This is where it gets confusing. You seem to interpret the idea of vessel of dishonor as being in a position of honor, just less honor. They are still the saved of GOD but is less honorable service. Since there is no service to JESUS that is less honorable than another, I can not see this logic.

I am just defining them the way Paul does. Paul uses the analogy of a Potter and how a potter can take a lump of clay and make it into a more expensive, luxurious piece to adored and perhaps passed down as a keepsake. Or as Paul notes, the same lump of clay and make it into a piece that is for more mundane purposes, like a cereal bowl or a water pitcher. In the eyes of the Lord no service is less honorable that is true, but that is not the point. The point is that Paul is again, defending God's sovereignty in terms of God's right to use whom He will for the purposes He wills, and that man has no say in the matter.

Plus, Paul clearly deliniates between the vessel created for dishonor/ fitted for destruction/vessels of wrath and those that are created for honor/mercy. He further explains that the one created for mercy are those whom GOD called.

Wrong. He does not mention anyone created for mercy. "Created" and "fitted" are not synonomous terms as Paul is using them and He does not juxtapoze these objects the way you do. Paul does not say that the vessels created for dishonor are fitted for destruction. Nor does Paul claim that being created for Honor means one is fitted for mercy. You are incorrectly extending the analogy beyond Paul's usage.

Yes, the vessels fitted for wrath have fitted themselves by virtue of sin, as we all have fitted ourselves for wrath (Eph 2:1) They were, however, still created for dishonor.

No, that is not what the Bible says. Being created for dishonor does not mean "chosen to go to hell." Bascially, your approach means that a large sector of humanity is simply born in a state of utter hopelessness. Created for dishonor (and the word "dishonor" is a bit strong) simply refers to the service one is chosen by God to perform. God does not call everyone to be Preachers or Evangelists. Sometimes God just wants us to be the best we can be in our own world. It doesn't mean that we will be less rewarded or that God places a diminished value on what we do, but we are not chosen by God to have the same international impact that some like say, Billy Graham would have.

Those created for honor, even though they conducted themselves in the same manner as the dishonorable, GOD called into fellowship with HIMSELF establishing them as The Called that Paul states were predestined to this calling.

Created for honor does not mean "created to be saved."

[kross]

If you look up the words in "for many are called, but few are chosen" you will see that it could/should say, "For many are called, but few are The called"

Not according to my Bible or references . . . but I provided online one

[kross]

Yes, the vessels fitted for wrath have fitted themselves by virtue of sin, as we all have fitted ourselves for wrath (Eph 2:1) They were, however, still created for dishonor.

No, that is not what the Bible says. Being created for dishonor does not mean "chosen to go to hell." Bascially, your approach means that a large sector of humanity is simply born in a state of utter hopelessness. Created for dishonor (and the word "dishonor" is a bit strong) simply refers to the service one is chosen by God to perform. God does not call everyone to be Preachers or Evangelists. Sometimes God just wants us to be the best we can be in our own world. It doesn't mean that we will be less rewarded or that God places a diminished value on what we do, but we are not chosen by God to have the same international impact that some like say, Billy Graham would have.

I find this statement to be quite disturbing. Are there people who teach that the person who cleans the toilets is less honorable than the one who preaches? This goes quite contrary to my understanding of the foot and the eye and the hand all being equally important.

Maybe that is why I have a hard time understanding your point. I have always been taught that no position of service is less honorable than another.

Of course, this doesn't really explain that the vessel of mercy refers to the one who are called, jews and gentiles.

[Guest shiloh357]

I find this statement to be quite disturbing. Are there people who teach that the person who cleans the toilets is less honorable than the one who preaches? This goes quite contrary to my understanding of the foot and the eye and the hand all being equally important.

Well, if you bothered to read what I said, I made the point God does not view some in diminished vocation or lower level of service.

Paul is speaking in human terms. Human beings DO heap more honor on men like Billy Graham and other well known ministers and give less honor to the church janitor even though he is serving God every bit as much as Billy Graham.

You are still missin the point. The point is that Paul uses the vessels of honor/dishonor metaphor to show that God is able to use anyone for any purpose He sees fit. This was to answer those who would criticize God for blinding Israel and using Israel as an instrument to bring about the death of Jesus in order to make salvation available for the Gentiles. Just as the potter is free to make a vessel for whatever purpose he chooses, God is able to use us for whatever purpose He chooses. THAT is the ONLY point Paul is making. At NO point is Paul making any statement about God making someone for salvation and making someone else for damnation.

Of course, this doesn't really explain that the vessel of mercy refers to the one who are called, jews and gentiles.

That is because you are fixated on the ubiblical notion that GOD makes us vessels of mercy or vessels fit for destruction. The Bible doesn't say that.

[kross]

I find this statement to be quite disturbing. Are there people who teach that the person who cleans the toilets is less honorable than the one who preaches? This goes quite contrary to my understanding of the foot and the eye and the hand all being equally important.

Well, if you bothered to read what I said, I made the point God does not view some in diminished vocation or lower level of service.

Paul is speaking in human terms. Human beings DO heap more honor on men like Billy Graham and other well known ministers and give less honor to the church janitor even though he is serving God every bit as much as Billy Graham.

You are still missin the point. The point is that Paul uses the vessels of honor/dishonor metaphor to show that God is able to use anyone for any purpose He sees fit. This was to answer those who would criticize God for blinding Israel and using Israel as an instrument to bring about the death of Jesus in order to make salvation available for the Gentiles. Just as the potter is free to make a vessel for whatever purpose he chooses, God is able to use us for whatever purpose He chooses. THAT is the ONLY point Paul is making. At NO point is Paul making any statement about God making someone for salvation and making someone else for damnation.

Of course, this doesn't really explain that the vessel of mercy refers to the one who are called, jews and gentiles.

That is because you are fixated on the ubiblical notion that GOD makes us vessels of mercy or vessels fit for destruction. The Bible doesn't say that.

The scriptures branch from the question, "Why does HE still find fault?" I can not see how HE would "Find fault" in the vessels for dishonor if they are Christians.

I understand this seems to flow in your mind and understanding. But, Paul is discussing hardening Pharoahs heart and loving one and hating another by the sheer soveriegn choosing of GOD. You then go from that to the idea of all of this just referring to service. Then you say that Paul is speaking from human perspective about these thing being perfectly honorable in GOD's eyes, but not ours.

I appreciate your time on this subject, but that is too many twists for me to follow (or ever agree with).

I do thankyou for this added explaination. It has convinced me more of what I believe the scriptures say.

HIS PEACE TO YOU