What do you think fo these passages?

[eve]

Dear Dr Luke and Wordsower,

In Revelation 20:4-6

V 5:  "The rest of the dead did not....." - Refers to those dead in sins without Christ.

V 4:  "They had not worshipped the beast or his image and..."  - They are the JUST, and these verses refer not to a rapture at the start of the 7-years period (I explained it in other threads).

V 6:  "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.  The second death (ie lake of fire in V 14) has no power over them."

So the above verses refer to those dead in Christ as in I Cor 15:12-26 who are brought back to life in the first resurrection and get to reign with Christ for a 1000 years.  

In Revelation 20:7-15

The above verses refer to the second resurrection of those dead in sins/without Christ, being brought back to life only after 1000 years.  They are the UNJUST and are to be judged according to their works and to be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, meaning they don't die but will have everlasting punishment.

[Matthitjah]

Eve,

I see that. My interpretation is different. Revelation 20:4 says

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them Beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of G-d, and which had not worshipped the beast,neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These are the saints out of the Tribulation. Who were beheaded because they would not worship the beast or recieve his mark or his image.  I think the passage is saying these are those who gave witness of Jesus and the Word of G-d. They did not worship the beast or take his mark.

In Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before G-d; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Verse 13

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

verse14

And death and hell were cast into the Lake of fire. This is the second death.

Verse 15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So the dead are all raised and judged from books and those not found in the book of life are discarded. What of those found in the book of life? I think we can assume They will stay with G-d.If they were resurrected with the first set of saints out of the Tribulation? Why would the passage be written that way? Or am I wrong? Or could it be that there are people living during the 1,000 year reign that will make it through the Tribulation and live during this period also dieing. then being raised at the end? I find it hard to believe that some people alive and living during his reign would question and even go against his Word. Especially when he is in their sight and hearing. Still it is evident that this is exactly what happens when Satan is loosed at the end of the 1,000 year reign.

Look at John6:38-40

For I come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the fathers will which hath sent me, That of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The more answers I find the more questions I seem to come up with. I will think on this.

Peace :inlove: Amen

[Matthitjah]

What of this passage?

Daniel 7:23-25

Thus he said.

"The fourth beast shall be a Fourth kingdom on earth. Which shall be different from all the other kingdoms. And shall devour the whole earth,Trample it and break it in pieces. the ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall speak pompous words against the most high.Shall persecute the saints of the most high, and shall intend to change times and law.

Key phrase here

Then the saints shall  be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time. (3 1/2 years)

First he persecutes the Saints. Then they are given into his hand for 3 1/2 years.

How can this be if we are Pre trib Raptured? I know what you'll all say. These are the saints who believe after we leave. They weren't as good as us so they missed the marriage. What, no believer should go through tribulation? He wouldn't do that to us? Would he?

You see. You didn't prepare enough. So you must suffer unspeakable things that us special Bridal Christians don't have to.

[eve]

What of this passage?

Daniel 7:23-25

Thus he said.

"The fourth beast shall be a Fourth kingdom on earth. Which shall be different from all the other kingdoms. And shall devour the whole earth,Trample it and break it in pieces. the ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall speak pompous words against the most high.Shall persecute the saints of the most high, and shall intend to change times and law.

Key phrase here

Then the saints shall

[Matthitjah]

Eve,

I agree with you. This spirit of argumentism is spoiling our nature, which is to be humble.I also agree with your Rapture doctrine for the most part. The reason I put the question out was to evoke debate. I wish to further clarify what I already know.

You have been peaceful yet stood for what you believed. I am still somewhat confused. Mid or Post? I think that matters not. Yet pre trib is dangerous. For it says that some are more special than others. I have even seen a post where the supposed Bride is within the church and body of believers. They are specially prepared and not all the church will partake. Now that is Vanity and pride. :thumb:

I understand about how the dead will rise first then we who are left alive. Nowhere does it say of a secret rapture that only those prepared will be taken. Nowhere are we the Bride. Only allegorically are we mentioned as such by Paul. So as to relate how we must be faithful to G-d. We are the guests at the Wedding.

Now I think the pre tribbers are sincere. They are not trying to place themselves before others . Yet their doctrine does just that.(Those who are first shall be last, those last first)( Go not into a wedding and and take the high seat lest your master asks you to move for someone else. Go in and take a seat in the back and then your master will bid you to come up closer.) I think they Love the lord with all their heart. They feel that G-d won't let them have Tribulation. He made no such promise. We are not to have the wrath of G-d. G-d doesn't bring Tribulation.

The Lord loves us as brothers and sisters under the Father.He even said such.We ought to act accordingly.

The pre trib is dangerous in the fact that some might believe anything to be the rapture.Once Tribulation has broken out. If men can twist the word to some magical rapture where only the select are taken. What can the beast do with it? We are forewarned not to take the Mark.Several times. If some weak faith individual who has spent alot of time watching televangelist and not reading the Word .Says in his heart the Lord hasn't come yet and besides the mark is spiritual and not literal (Also they would have told me)and takes it so he might eat because he can't buy and sell. Said individual is in for a rude awakening. (Many shall fall some shall be refined.)The wise will know.(See I have told you these things)People in America haven't known hunger and will not be able to deal with it. Lest their faith be strong.

I say these things with passion because I fear the Lords wrath.

Peace :inlove: Amen

[eve]

Permit me to share about my experiences on human, surface level:- (can be perceived as simply shallow but I'm keeping it real)

I used to believe in Pre-Trib (i.e. not having to confront the Antichrist and undergo any part of that Great Tribulation as mentioned in various verses in the NT) for sometime and thought about being raptured away, blissfully.

[Adstar]

Hello Dr Luke and eve

Good discussion

From what I have been reading it seems that there is some confusion about the tribulation it seems that Dr luke sees the tribulation and the wrath to be parts of the tribulation. From my understanding the tribulation is satans and his followers persecution of Christians and the wrath is Gods vengeance\Judgment on satan and his followers these are two distinct periods divided by the rapture. The rapture saves us from the wrath.

I am not so sure about the 3 1/2 year time period for the trib and 3 1/2 year wrath? how ever long it is is how long it will be.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Matthitjah]

Adstar,

I by no means see the tribulation and the wrath being the same. We are not appointed to wrath.

My cloudiness is concerning when the tribulation ends and the wrath begins. If by G-ds grace I make it thru tribulation. I long to see my savior coming on Clouds of Glory. the Lord is helping me sort it out work it through.  Partly through these boards and you good people. Any hints?

I definitly don't see a pre trib rapture. I think it matters not when the rapture occurs during tribulation. The key point is there is no pre trib rapture. Many modern day preachers and churchs are deceiving many people. We definitly will see persecution and some of us death at the hands of the A.C.

I'm thinking that the real rapture will occur sometime after the revealing of the man of perdition and the institution of the Mark. Also I see in Matthew 24 that The Abomination of desolation shall be seen then shall there be great tribulation.

It is my understanding from Daniel that, that won't happen until after the peace pact is broken about half way thru the last week of Daniels 70 weeks. That would be the 3 1/2 year mark.

So the A.C. arises out of the E.U. in times of great trouble. Subjecating the whole world thru peace. Making a false peace pact with the Jews and breaking it 1/2 way thru. This we know to be fact.

Where do we fall on the timeline?

You also see in Daniel he first persecutes the saints then they are given into his hand for 3 1/2 years.

Does he persecute us before the peace pact? Then after it's signed we are given into his hand for 3 1/2 years. Or does he reveal who he truly is by setting up the abomination of desolation 1/2 way thru the last week and then we are given into his hand for 3 1/2 years.

It has been my understanding for a long time that when he signs the peace pact with Israel we Christians will know who he is. Nobody else will. we will also know because of the world system he sets up to buy and sell. Then when he sets up the Abomination of desolation the Jews will realize too late who he is.

A thought  of mine is . That unless he comes to power first he can't persecute anybody. So we will see him rise to power then persecution . Then we are given into his hand for 3 1/2 years.

Eve,

How do you know the wrath will last 3 1/2 years?

[wordsower]

I studied into the mid-trib rapture and found the following problems with it:

The marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19) is a picture of a wedding.  In a Jewish wedding the 'supper' lasts 7 days.

We are told that we will know the end from the beginning, (Is. 46:10)I take that to mean that we can understand Rev. from Gen.  in Genesis remember Jacob had two wives, Rachel and Leah.  He wanted Rachel but got tricked into marrying Leah, then he had to work another (7) years for Rachel, his first, true love  A picture of the rapture?  I think so, God's first love is Israel but He will get the Gentiles first and then 7 years later the Jews.

Just a couple of things.

[RCruise]

I studied into the mid-trib rapture and found the following problems with it:

The marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19) is a picture of a wedding.