can salvation be lost?

[nikki1]

The question now becomes: "By what means does a Christian know they are truly among the Elect (a.k.a. Predestined)?"

You seem to think that nobody this side of Heaven can know if they are saved or not, unless, as you stated above, you get a "direct personal (private) revelation from heaven". Here is scripture refuting your thoughts.

1 John 5:11-13

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1 John 2:25

This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

Amen!

RCCism teaches that salvation cannot be assured until after death. The Bible says we can know today, right now that we are saved. God has provided us with a know-so salvation.

Blessings, and

amen

Nikki

[JCISGD]

Hi Jedi, i think what some osas people are getting at is more like predestination, but if used to be complacent or neglectful i think they will not find themselves in the Lambs book after all. It is true that those who are truly saved will not fall away, but these will also not be in sin either.

Its pretty clear from the 2Pet20-22 that they knew the Lord Jesus as Savior and had escaped the defilement's of the world yet at some point a long the way they became overcome with sin and fell away from the way of righteousness. In the OSAS book that person had truly experienced salvation.

So how can you tell a person they are eternally secure if you don't know for sure if they are truly saved or wont fall way, because 2Pet2:20 shows that you can know the Lord as Savior and escape the defilement's of the world and then again be overcome with sin and fall away, and have a worser fate and judgment then the unbeliever.

Hi Jedi, i do agree with your position entirely and i refute osas, i was defending somewhat those who use words differently but essentially mean the same. What i was trying to say was some seem to be saying that those truly saved will not fall away therefore osas, but we know that some are in the faith but do irrevocably fall away, such as Annias and Sapphira.

[Smalcald]

Actually 1 John is really concerned with addressing this very issue. Should we live in terror if we are believers? Is this what God wants from us?

13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

There is NO fear in love, we can indeed as shown above have CONFIDENCE on the day of judgment.

[Guest shiloh357]

Its pretty clear from scripture that Christians can lose their salvation.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. (22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Answer me this:

1) Why would it had been better for them to have never known the Lord then to know him and fall away?

2) How can their judgment be worse then those that have never known the Lord, if they are OSAS?

It is not describing people who were truly saved. Namely because the situation described is not salvation. It refers seducers and false prophets. You need to examine the context and line of thought. Peter is not criticizing believers. From the 1st verse of 2 Peter chapter 2, the subject is false prophets. The phrase "knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ" refers not to salvational knowledge, but of notional acknowledgement. They reformed their behavior, but they did not have a true spiritual inward transformation. This is not referring to true believers at all, and the context will not allow us to see them as true believers. Note, that compares them to a dog who returns to its vomit and the sow that returns to the mud. Why would a dog return to its vomit? Because that is the nature of dogs. Pigs wallow in the mud because that is the nature of pigs. The point Peter is making is that they are still sinners. They are still, by nature sinners and that is why they return to to a life of sin. a dog can only do what a dog does. A person who professes Christ but returns to life of sin indicates that they were most likely never saved. They had "religion," and they knew how to act Christian, and go through the motions, but they never knew Christ.

As for your two questions: 1. It is like Jesus said to the cities along the galilee, "It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Ghomorrah on the day of judgment, than for you. It is far worse to know the truth, assent and affirm the truth, but reject it anyway. and 2. There is no such thing as OSAS. That reflects a misunderstanding and misperception of the genine doctrine of Eternal Security.

Last Question:

3) Based on the above scripture, what caused them to fall away? (Being entangled and overcome with sin)

Well the root cause is that they were never changed. It is one thing to fail in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord, but the people described above need to be examined in the greater context of the passage. The context is dealing with those who heard and knew the truth, but rejected it anyway.

Be not deceived!!!!

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)

This verse appears in the context of Paul's exhortation about not taking fellow believers to court in the city of Corinth. Paul felt it was in appropriate for Christians to air the "dirty laundry" in front of immoral magistrates. The city of Corinth was so immoral and over run with sin, that even the city magistrates were participating in rampant sexual immorality. Paul's argument is that it is wrong for the Corinthian believers to take one another to court and be tried by fornicators, idolators, adulterers homosexuals, etc. Paul is talking not about Christians but of sinners who live in sin as a matter of principle, who live in and enjoy habitual sin. That is why Paul identifies people who will not inherit the Kingdom. Paul does not say if you happen to fail in a moment of weakness and commit one of those above sins, that you will forfeit your salavation.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

The Bible says that it is those who believe on Jesus Christ who have overcome the world. We do not "overcome" by what we do. Here how we overcome:

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1Jn 5:4-5)

OSAS is doctrine of deception that tells Christians that they can continue in sin and still go to heaven?

There is no such doctrine as OSAS. That is the label assigned to the doctrine of Eternal Security by those who don't believe the Bible, and don't understand the doctrine they criticize. OSAS is a myth. It does not exist and has never existed. Eternal Security does not teach that you can live in sin and still go to heaven.

Eternal Security is based on the biblical teaching that once you are saved, you are a new creation and are inwardly transformed and have a new heart and a new set of desires, namely a desire to serve the Lord. Eternal Security is based on the finished work on the cross and nothing else. If you can continue in sin, you have not been saved and all of emotional objections to that fact are meaningless. The litmus test of a true believer is a transformed heart. People can act "religious" for a season, but eventually, it all comes out in the wash.

[Smalcald]

What does backsliding mean? I have heard it used by I think Parker earlier and by other Christians. We don't use that term and it is confusing to me.

I think Shiloh you would say a person who intentionally lives in sin who rejects the faith and does not even try to struggle against sin, was never saved in the first place regardless of what they may have said or prayed or whatever? Is this a person who has "backslid"?

[JCISGD]

What does backsliding mean? I have heard it used by I think Parker earlier and by other Christians. We don't use that term and it is confusing to me.

I think Shiloh you would say a person who intentionally lives in sin who rejects the faith and does not even try to struggle against sin, was never saved in the first place regardless of what they may have said or prayed or whatever? Is this a person who has "backslid"?

The term was first used by God when describing Israel in OT, but i have to do a search to find it. It is also the same as the church of Laodice in Rev 3:15 who Jesus says had left their first love.

A Christian is not to live in fear of losing their salvation as long as they do not willfully turn away from the Lord in sin. We are counseled by Paul to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith", and this is known by the love in our heart for Jesus.

But it is foolish to think we can live for ourself and still love Jesus.

[JCISGD]

Shiloh i do agree that eternal security is promised to those who are truly saved, but it is not eternal security that is being challenged but the belief that just because a person makes a profession of faith that they are saved reguardless of their lifestyle and heart towards God.

In that sense the label OSAS is misleading and more accuratley called OTSBNS Only Think Saved But Not Saved. Yet Jesus threatens to "spue out of His mouth" the Laocediceans who had "left their first love, are you saying they were never saved in the first place or that Jesus was not warning them of losing their salvation?

[Rick-Parker]

shiloh357, and where have you been?

[Smalcald]

What does backsliding mean? I have heard it used by I think Parker earlier and by other Christians. We don't use that term and it is confusing to me.

I think Shiloh you would say a person who intentionally lives in sin who rejects the faith and does not even try to struggle against sin, was never saved in the first place regardless of what they may have said or prayed or whatever? Is this a person who has "backslid"?

The term was first used by God when describing Israel in OT, but i have to do a search to find it. It is also the same as the church of Laodice in Rev 3:15 who Jesus says had left their first love.

A Christian is not to live in fear of losing their salvation as long as they do not willfully turn away from the Lord in sin. We are counseled by Paul to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith", and this is known by the love in our heart for Jesus.

But it is foolish to think we can live for ourself and still love Jesus.

How about if we plan it? What I mean is say we rely on planned repentance as a way to intentionally live in sin now with the idea that you can always repent at some later date, particularly given that I know I am saved? A very common example of this is adultery. Let us say someone today right now on this very board is having an affair. They of course know it is wrong, but they plan on getting a divorce and getting re-married to their lover. At that point they will repent, and that is actually what is in the back of their mind, how could it not be? Adultery is a very planned sin, it is not like rage or some sort of addiction, adultery takes planning, it takes long term deceit, so there is no doubt that any instructed Christian would know it is a sin, and further have the ability to stop at some point, but they make an informed decision to not stop to intentionally deny God in that case; but they would also know we all sin and fall short and I can repent after I divorce and get married.

This is something I have seen several times over the years.

[JCISGD]

What does backsliding mean? I have heard it used by I think Parker earlier and by other Christians. We don't use that term and it is confusing to me.

I think Shiloh you would say a person who intentionally lives in sin who rejects the faith and does not even try to struggle against sin, was never saved in the first place regardless of what they may have said or prayed or whatever? Is this a person who has "backslid"?

The term was first used by God when describing Israel in OT, but i have to do a search to find it. It is also the same as the church of Laodice in Rev 3:15 who Jesus says had left their first love.

A Christian is not to live in fear of losing their salvation as long as they do not willfully turn away from the Lord in sin. We are counseled by Paul to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith", and this is known by the love in our heart for Jesus.

But it is foolish to think we can live for ourself and still love Jesus.

How about if we plan it? What I mean is say we rely on planned repentance as a way to intentionally live in sin now with the idea that you can always repent at some later date, particularly given that I know I am saved? A very common example of this is adultery. Let us say someone today right now on this very board is having an affair. They of course know it is wrong, but they plan on getting a divorce and getting re-married to their lover. At that point they will repent, and that is actually what is in the back of their mind, how could it not be? Adultery is a very planned sin, it is not like rage or some sort of addiction, adultery takes planning, it takes long term deceit, so there is no doubt that any instructed Christian would know it is a sin, and further have the ability to stop at some point, but they make an informed decision to not stop to intentionally deny God in that case; but they would also know we all sin and fall short and I can repent after I divorce and get married.

This is something I have seen several times over the years.

Hi Smd, planned repentance is not true repentance but a heart that is still living for itself and not God.

I agree that often adultery is planned as in lusted for before actually taking the steps of self deception that excuse what is known as wrong, but have you considered prov 7:7-23 where the simple youth devoid of understanding wanders near the door of the crafty and adulterous women, who with enticing speech and flattering lips seduces him?

Sometimes sin is committed out of stupidity or under strong temptation, like the alcoholic who has not had sufficient time to build up resistance to conquer being tempted. God does not excuse these sins but He does chastise and work with willing individuals who truly repent and change their ways.