can salvation be lost?

[kross]

Once again Shiloh, Amen.

There is no biblical example of a true Christian who left the faith or "lost" their salvation.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized [cf. Mark 16:16], he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. 14 Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

And you think because Peter rebuked him this way that he was condemned? Lost his salvation? Verse 16 clearly state the HOLY SPIRIT had not yet come upon them and Simon clearly had not recieved the HOLY SPIRIT or he would also have seem how the laying on of hands perveyed HIM. I do not have my Bible handy, but I do believe that Simon responded with a prayer of repentence.

Try again.

[kross]

If GOD changes the nature of a man to be drawn to HIM, HE will never change that nature back again.

If God changes the nature of a man, then the man is no longer a man. Our nature is what we are. We have a human nature. Our nature is fallen, and it can be restored, but it can never be changed. As human beings we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are created to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him. After we were made, God looked upon us and saw that we were good. The nature of man has not changed. The devil cannot make man do anything. All sin is by choice. God cannot will sin, nor can He will a man to sin. In fact, He wills the exact opposite. And He offers and gives every grace that men ask for to help refrain from sinning. The sin nature is still the nature of man, who has a rational human soul, and who is descended from the first man who spurned the preternatural gifts God bestowed upon him, gifts which alone made him good.

And thus is the difference in foundational doctrines.

No. This is the difference in the proper use of words. If the nature of something changes then that something is no longer that something. If the nature of man is changed, then man is no longer man. That is a crucial point for understanding who and what Christ is. For example: He is both God and man: two Natures. If the divine and the human are so thoroughly mixed that they become a new Nature, then He is neither God nor man, but something completely different.** So it is with man, as well. If our nature is thoroughly changed, then we are no longer men.

**Many heresies arose in the early Church concerning this point of Christology, and had to be corrected by the Ecumenical Councils.

So you feel JESUS had the same nature as all fallen men? It is one man's nature to be violent, another man's nature to be timid. They are both equally men. Just as a completely fallen man has a different nature than a blood bought, HOLY SPIRIT indwelt, saved child of the living GOD.

[Smalcald]

I think the issue is the once in a moment view of being saved. If salvation comes as a one time; emotional born again experience then logically that is it and you cannot be "unsaved". If however faith is a lifelong journey and struggle, then you would have a different view.

[Rick-Parker]

And yet the Bible also says that someone can walk away from that very salvation. In which case, they had eternal life, but no longer have it. They knew they had eternal life, but they surrendered it up for a mess of pottage.

No, the Bible does not say that. There is no biblical example of a true Christian who left the faith or "lost" their salvation.

They knew they had eternal life, but because they forfeited that eternal life, they are not, nor never were among the Elect.

That makes no sense, biblically. All people who have eternal life are the Elect. One cannot be born again and NOT be part of the elect.

One cannot argue both "A" and "not-A". If knowing one has eternal life is equal to knowing one is among the Elect, then one can know right now they are among the Elect, and, if they are among the Elect, then no matter what they do, they can never lose that Election. Indeed, they cannot walk away from it at all.

The problem is that salvation, REAL salvation is an inward transformation and is a work of the Holy Spirit. A true Christian cannot be "untransformed." A true Christian has a new set of desires to serve Christ. He is a new creation old things are passed away and all things are made new. A REAL Christian would not walk away. A REAL Christian who has a new heart and has been transformed would not even seek an opportunity to walk away.

Therefore, I make the necessary distinction between "knowing you have eternal life" and "being among the Elect".

The distinction you make is unbiblical and has no basis in truth or sound theology.

I have the certainty of faith that God is immutable, and if God has predestined someone from before the foundation of the world ("among the Elect") then that will stand no matter what. But I also have the certainty of faith that God cannot predestine an obstinate and unrepentant sinner to be among the Elect. He predestines us according to His foreknowledge. He knows that in the end the ones who are among the Elect will be the ones who turned from their sins and persevered to the end in His grace. Unfortunately, we earth-bound humans do not have such omniscience.

God does not predestine who will or will not be saved. He knows who will obey the gospel and who will not. He does not choose some to obey and others not to obey.

Therefore, while we may know we have eternal life at any given moment, we do not have the knowledge (unless it is divinely revealed to us personally) that we are among the Elect

Wrong. I am among the Elect because I have eternal life. If you don't know then your probably not a Christian. You might subscribe and assent to the Christian religion, but a REAL Christian has a know-so salvation. There is no doubts in genuine, biblical Christianity.

If someone keeps the faith to the end, it proves they are among the Elect.

If someone does not keep the faith to the end, it proves they were never among the Elect.

On this we all agree.

That you know for certain you are among the Elect means that you believe you have omniscient powers, that you believe you know the future, that you know for a fact that you will never turn your back on God, even in the face of the most gruesome tortures.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch was torn limb from limb by wild beasts.

Tell me that you are absolutely 100% certain will never falter in the face of wild beasts.

Saint Lawrence was thrown onto a giant BBQ and roasted alive.

Tell me you are absolutely 100% certain you will not falter when you feel the searing heat on your flesh.

Saint Peter was crucified upside down.

Tell me your faith will hold absolutely 100% firm as you feel the iron nails rip through your hands.

Tell me that you know for a 100% absolute infallible inerrant fact that you will not lose your faith at some future time when your comforts are all gone and the Enemy torments your body and afflicts your spirit.

You cannot know this.

You can only hope and pray that when the time comes God will grant you the grace to persevere to the end.

What you are forgetting is that He does not owe you anything.

He does not owe you salvation just because you once upon a time put your faith in Him.

I don't believe that one can loose their salvation even if they renounce Christ in the throngs of torture as you suggest. That is just ridiculous.We are saved by grace, through faith, not by works.

[OneLight]

What is it that you think conviction is? A man, in his fallen nature, will have no conviction of his sins. It is when the nature of a man is changed, from rejecting GOD to desiring HIM, that he is suddenly faced with the reality of his sin. This turning may be slow or it may be instant, each of us who are saved are saved in the fullness of HIS time.

As the Holy Spirit reasons with our spirit, showing us our sins and the results of our sins, which is the condition of our heart, which we have disregarded all along, we, probably the first time since we started to sin, take a real look at our heart and realize what the truth of our condition is. When we first sin, we know it is wrong, but as we harden our heart, the sin no longer has it's sting. That is why the Holy Spirit needs to remind us through conviction. No where in scripture do we read that the Holy Spirit changes us until after we accept salvation through Christ, then He gives us a new heart and renews our mind.

Again, the difference in doctrinal foundation comes into play when questions of why GOD allows some to go to hell is asked. Since you come from a completely different point of reference than I do, a different foundational doctrine, my answer to that question would be rejected out of hand. Just as certainly as we would have to completely different answers as to why GOD created the world and man in the first place.

God allows people to reject Him because He does not force anyone to accept salvation. Ever since the first rejection of God, through Adam and Eve, man has chosen their path. As for why God created man, we have never discussed this matter.

You believe that every person has a free will and that they all have an equal possibility and ability to choose GOD or reject HIM. I believe that man is totally fallen, his will is captive to sin, Satan, and his own flesh and that there is no part of a man that will choose GOD.

You give Satan too much power. Satan is the prince of this world, but we are free to reject his will also. Man has a choice to either sin or not to sin. I have a choice to steal or not to steal. My future is not planned out by Satan or God, it unravels before me with each decision I make. You may see yourself as some sort of puppet to either Satan or God, but I see myself as a person, given the ability to choose from God to make my own decisions. If this was not so, then there would be no relationship with Christ, for a relationship takes two.

For you, salvation is a choice that we make based on what would have to be an equal effort by the HOLY SPIRIT to save each person. (Since it would be unfair for GOD to put forth more effort to save one than HE does another) Some will reject and some will accept.

No sir, you are wrong. I do not see myself as an equal with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has come into the world to convict the world of sin. It is up to each person to either listen to the Holy Spirit or not. God would not send His Spirit into the world to convict those whom He has not chosen. It would be a total waste of time to Him. he does so because man has the ability to choose to listen or not. God tells us in His word that Christ came to save the world and the Holy Spirit came to convict the world. That alone shows that we have to choose. If all it took was for God to change the will of man to accept Him, then Christ died for only a chosen number and the conviction work of the Holy Spirit is not needed.

For me, salvation is an act of GOD to change the nature of those whom HE has chosen from before the foundation of the Earth. HE exerts a very real, supernatural effort in the salvation of HIS people. HE never fails to save anyone HE sets out to save. In short, HE plows the ground, HE removes the rocks, HE prepares the soil to recieve the seed. One comes along and plants seeds, one waters those seeds, but it is GOD who gives the increase. It is GOD who determines which seeds grow.

I believe that God looked down through time and knew who will accept Him and who will not, through the person choice of each person. Romans 8:29 tells us "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." He foreknew who was going to accept Him, so He set into action His plan to conform those who He knew would accept Him. God did not pick this one and reject that one, as if we were no more then His choice. God loves us enough to hope that everyone would choose Him, as scripture tells us over and over again.

For me, I find a great deal of gratitude in GOD not leaving my salvation up to me. That HE chose me is to wonderful to understand. Thus, HE will also not unchoose me (just to bring this back to the OP.)

True love requires choice, not force. Try looking at scripture with that in mind. You will see such a loving God this way and realize that you love Him for who He is, not because He decided to choose you over another. Love never comes out of force. If this was the case, then we could force anyone to fall in love with us, for we are made in His image. That is not how love, nor life works.

[OneLight]

That is funny. It is in scripture and reads as follows.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Being a partaker is more then conviction. Look it up.

HIS grace to you,

And there in lies the mis-understanding.

I understand that this is a scripture specific to those it was written to. Hebrews who might have considered leaving the truth of JESUS to return to the old ways, and trusting in the old sacrifices. It is not something that refers to me in any way.

You feel that this "Partaking" means "Indwelling". I see it as someone who has been in the presence of and possibly even touched by, but not necessarily indwelt.

One stands near a fire and feels the heat and enjoys the comfort. One has not been indwelt by that fire and should they turn away from it, there is no other source of warmth. If that fire becomes a part of them, they willl be changed and it will be permanent.

Now, as you well know, we can toss scriptures back and forth forever. There are clearly scriptures that are interpretted either direction based on which foundation one comes from. I have reached a point in my life where I do not put so great a concern on which point anyone comes from. If one believes he can loose his salvation, it likely helps him to stay on a narrow path. If one doesn't believe he can loose his salvation, than it likely gives that person the freedom to trust in GOD to keep him saved and safe as he moves into areas and deals with people and situation that cause the latter to fear being influenced.

My strength comes from my relationship with JESUS. It is not anything that is of me or my will. It is simply born of the nature GOD has given me. I walk in this relationship trusting my life and salvation to JESUS. Now, maybe it's true that this is just me being blind to some scriptures or maybe it is born of too much trust. I just do not think a person can trust JESUS too much. Particularly with regard to salvation.

So, I lean on those scriptures that clearly tell me I am adopted by GOD as one of HIS children, sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT who is given to me as a gaurantee until the day of my redemption.

It's all good.

HIS Peace to you and yours

If you look at Hebrews in this light, then you have to also look at most of scripture in the same manner. Where ever it does not say Gentiles, you must reject. All scriptures were written to a specific group of people, or a certain person, and not you, so you have to just read it like a book and learn what God did for this group or person, and not apply it to your life. You limit His word this way.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New King James Version)

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Was this scripture only for Timothy or was it for everyone to learn from? It was sent to just Timothy.

Looking at Hebrews 6:4-6 and saying that it was just about the Hebrew mindset and history is wrong according to what Paul wrote Timothy. To think that Hebrews 6:4-6 is just a warning to the Hebrews limits God so much, and He is not limited by man. This passage ties in to what has been said about the falling away in the last days. Scripture confirms scripture.

[OneLight]

Many scripture have been given to support that people can leave the will of God, on their own choice, yet, you say that it is God who changes their will, so in fact, you are saying that God has changed their heart so they will turn from God. That is a blatant lie. He gave His Son so that all will turn to Him.

This is what I referred to with regard to twisting, mis-understanding what I stated.

Just for clarification, I did not say GOD changes their will so they will turn away. I said GOD changes their will so they will turn to him. HE doesn't have to do anything for men to turn away. That is the nature of man.

If GOD changes the nature of a man to be drawn to HIM, HE will never change that nature back again.

Peace

Show me scripture that backs this statement. My scripture that proves that man is not changed until after he accepts salvation through Christ is the following:

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

Both tells us that we must first be IN CHRIST. Nowhere does scripture tell us that God changes us before we are in Him, as you think. It is not me who has a misunderstanding of scripture, but you brother.

[Guest shiloh357]

If someone keeps the faith to the end, it proves they are among the Elect.

If someone does not keep the faith to the end, it proves they were never among the Elect.

On this we all agree.

No we don't. I already know I am among the Elect because I was born again into the Kingdom of God. Eternal life starts now, not in the future. I may not be able to prove it to YOU, but I don't have to. I already know who I am, and I know whose I am.

That you know for certain you are among the Elect means that you believe you have omniscient powers, that you believe you know the future, that you know for a fact that you will never turn your back on God, even in the face of the most gruesome tortures.

No, it means I believe the promises of a God who cannot lie, and who has sealed my as one of His elect by His Holy Spirit.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch was torn limb from limb by wild beasts.

Tell me that you are absolutely 100% certain will never falter in the face of wild beasts.

Saint Lawrence was thrown onto a giant BBQ and roasted alive.

Tell me you are absolutely 100% certain you will not falter when you feel the searing heat on your flesh.

Saint Peter was crucified upside down.

Tell me your faith will hold absolutely 100% firm as you feel the iron nails rip through your hands.

Tell me that you know for a 100% absolute infallible inerrant fact that you will not lose your faith at some future time when your comforts are all gone and the Enemy torments your body and afflicts your spirit.

You cannot know this.

You can only hope and pray that when the time comes God will grant you the grace to persevere to the end.

Salvation is not based on what I do. It is not based on my faithfulness or the lack thereof. Salvation does depend on our strength to hold on to God. It depends on His strength to hold on to us. Salvation, from start to finish is a work of God, not a work of man at any point. We are not partners with God in our salvation. He is the Savior, and we are the ones needing salvation. We are helpless and hopeless on our own. We cannot add anything to God's work.

If salvation depends on me being able to endure torture, then I deserve some of the glory. If salvation depends on my performance, then I share in God's work, and I become my own savior. Such notions are blasphemous at the very least.

What you are forgetting is that He does not owe you anything.

He does not owe you salvation just because you once upon a time put your faith in Him.

You are right. He doesn't owe it to me. Rather, He has promised it to me nonetheless, and I, unlike YOU, believe His promises.

Salvation is a free gift. It is not owed. If it were, it would be reward. Salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) and as such, it is promised to me on the grounds that I put my trust in Christ and His finished work on the cross. He promises to transform me, indwell me, and give me eternal life today. I have eternal life, because Jesus lives in me and HE is eternal life. I am in Christ, and He is in me. I know for a fact that if I were to die tonight, that I would be at home with Jesus the very next second.

You are waiting to see what will happen to you. You are waiting for God to weigh your deeds. You are waiting for judgment. Jesus said that all who believe in Him, have already passed from judgment into life. I have already been judged. I was judged righteous. My eternal destiny is already determined.

You have nothing to offer, frankly, except doubt and unbelief.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think the issue is the once in a moment view of being saved. If salvation comes as a one time; emotional born again experience then logically that is it and you cannot be "unsaved". If however faith is a lifelong journey and struggle, then you would have a different view.

It is the other religions that see "faith" as a journey or a path to God one must walk. The problem with that view is that there is no "path" to God.

[EricH]

If someone keeps the faith to the end, it proves they are among the Elect.

If someone does not keep the faith to the end, it proves they were never among the Elect.

On this we all agree.

No we don't. I already know I am among the Elect because I was born again into the Kingdom of God. Eternal life starts now, not in the future. I may not be able to prove it to YOU, but I don't have to. I already know who I am, and I know whose I am.

That you know for certain you are among the Elect means that you believe you have omniscient powers, that you believe you know the future, that you know for a fact that you will never turn your back on God, even in the face of the most gruesome tortures.

No, it means I believe the promises of a God who cannot lie, and who has sealed my as one of His elect by His Holy Spirit.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch was torn limb from limb by wild beasts.

Tell me that you are absolutely 100% certain will never falter in the face of wild beasts.

Saint Lawrence was thrown onto a giant BBQ and roasted alive.

Tell me you are absolutely 100% certain you will not falter when you feel the searing heat on your flesh.

Saint Peter was crucified upside down.

Tell me your faith will hold absolutely 100% firm as you feel the iron nails rip through your hands.

Tell me that you know for a 100% absolute infallible inerrant fact that you will not lose your faith at some future time when your comforts are all gone and the Enemy torments your body and afflicts your spirit.

You cannot know this.

You can only hope and pray that when the time comes God will grant you the grace to persevere to the end.

Salvation is not based on what I do. It is not based on my faithfulness or the lack thereof. Salvation does depend on our strength to hold on to God. It depends on His strength to hold on to us. Salvation, from start to finish is a work of God, not a work of man at any point. We are not partners with God in our salvation. He is the Savior, and we are the ones needing salvation. We are helpless and hopeless on our own. We cannot add anything to God's work.

If salvation depends on me being able to endure torture, then I deserve some of the glory. If salvation depends on my performance, then I share in God's work, and I become my own savior. Such notions are blasphemous at the very least.

What you are forgetting is that He does not owe you anything.

He does not owe you salvation just because you once upon a time put your faith in Him.

You are right. He doesn't owe it to me. Rather, He has promised it to me nonetheless, and I, unlike YOU, believe His promises.

Salvation is a free gift. It is not owed. If it were, it would be reward. Salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) and as such, it is promised to me on the grounds that I put my trust in Christ and His finished work on the cross. He promises to transform me, indwell me, and give me eternal life today. I have eternal life, because Jesus lives in me and HE is eternal life. I am in Christ, and He is in me. I know for a fact that if I were to die tonight, that I would be at home with Jesus the very next second.

You are waiting to see what will happen to you. You are waiting for God to weigh your deeds. You are waiting for judgment. Jesus said that all who believe in Him, have already passed from judgment into life. I have already been judged. I was judged righteous. My eternal destiny is already determined.

You have nothing to offer, frankly, except doubt and unbelief.

Could not have said it better myself