can salvation be lost?

[OneLight]

Show me where Paul, who's conversion is fully documented, where and when exactly is he saved? How did Paul decide anything when Christ struck him blind? How about Peter when was his conversion shown in scripture? Was Peter saved when he denied Christ? Was Peter saved when before denying Christ he said that Jesus was Christ? When did it happen, what was the moment? No one including these guys themselves can point to the moment in time idea, they simply had faith and they ran the race, they made it to the end. What if Peter had died right after denying he even knew Christ? What does Jesus say about those who deny Him in front of men? You

[kross]

What is it that you think conviction is? A man, in his fallen nature, will have no conviction of his sins. It is when the nature of a man is changed, from rejecting GOD to desiring HIM, that he is suddenly faced with the reality of his sin. This turning may be slow or it may be instant, each of us who are saved are saved in the fullness of HIS time.

As the Holy Spirit reasons with our spirit, showing us our sins and the results of our sins, which is the condition of our heart, which we have disregarded all along, we, probably the first time since we started to sin, take a real look at our heart and realize what the truth of our condition is. When we first sin, we know it is wrong, but as we harden our heart, the sin no longer has it's sting. That is why the Holy Spirit needs to remind us through conviction. No where in scripture do we read that the Holy Spirit changes us until after we accept salvation through Christ, then He gives us a new heart and renews our mind.

Again, the difference in doctrinal foundation comes into play when questions of why GOD allows some to go to hell is asked. Since you come from a completely different point of reference than I do, a different foundational doctrine, my answer to that question would be rejected out of hand. Just as certainly as we would have to completely different answers as to why GOD created the world and man in the first place.

God allows people to reject Him because He does not force anyone to accept salvation. Ever since the first rejection of God, through Adam and Eve, man has chosen their path. As for why God created man, we have never discussed this matter.

You believe that every person has a free will and that they all have an equal possibility and ability to choose GOD or reject HIM. I believe that man is totally fallen, his will is captive to sin, Satan, and his own flesh and that there is no part of a man that will choose GOD.

You give Satan too much power. Satan is the prince of this world, but we are free to reject his will also. Man has a choice to either sin or not to sin. I have a choice to steal or not to steal. My future is not planned out by Satan or God, it unravels before me with each decision I make. You may see yourself as some sort of puppet to either Satan or God, but I see myself as a person, given the ability to choose from God to make my own decisions. If this was not so, then there would be no relationship with Christ, for a relationship takes two.

For you, salvation is a choice that we make based on what would have to be an equal effort by the HOLY SPIRIT to save each person. (Since it would be unfair for GOD to put forth more effort to save one than HE does another) Some will reject and some will accept.

No sir, you are wrong. I do not see myself as an equal with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has come into the world to convict the world of sin. It is up to each person to either listen to the Holy Spirit or not. God would not send His Spirit into the world to convict those whom He has not chosen. It would be a total waste of time to Him. he does so because man has the ability to choose to listen or not. God tells us in His word that Christ came to save the world and the Holy Spirit came to convict the world. That alone shows that we have to choose. If all it took was for God to change the will of man to accept Him, then Christ died for only a chosen number and the conviction work of the Holy Spirit is not needed.

For me, salvation is an act of GOD to change the nature of those whom HE has chosen from before the foundation of the Earth. HE exerts a very real, supernatural effort in the salvation of HIS people. HE never fails to save anyone HE sets out to save. In short, HE plows the ground, HE removes the rocks, HE prepares the soil to recieve the seed. One comes along and plants seeds, one waters those seeds, but it is GOD who gives the increase. It is GOD who determines which seeds grow.

I believe that God looked down through time and knew who will accept Him and who will not, through the person choice of each person. Romans 8:29 tells us "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." He foreknew who was going to accept Him, so He set into action His plan to conform those who He knew would accept Him. God did not pick this one and reject that one, as if we were no more then His choice. God loves us enough to hope that everyone would choose Him, as scripture tells us over and over again.

For me, I find a great deal of gratitude in GOD not leaving my salvation up to me. That HE chose me is to wonderful to understand. Thus, HE will also not unchoose me (just to bring this back to the OP.)

True love requires choice, not force. Try looking at scripture with that in mind. You will see such a loving God this way and realize that you love Him for who He is, not because He decided to choose you over another. Love never comes out of force. If this was the case, then we could force anyone to fall in love with us, for we are made in His image. That is not how love, nor life works.

You are more adept at splitting all these posts up than I am. Why is it when one peron says GOD gently alters the make up of a persons nature that some one calls that "Forcing" them. GOD has to replace the stoney heart before a person can soften to HIM. Since the need for a savior is a spiritual truth and a carnal man cannot understand spiritual truth, it stands to reason that until the dead spirit is given life, it can not react to spiritual things. Thus, the HOLY SPIRIT quickens first, the reaction to this is confession that leads to salvation.

If you will read one of those other points closer, you will see that I did not say you were equal to the HOLY SPIRIT. I said the HOLY SPIRIT must exert an equal influence on each person.

You say love doesn't run into a burning building and pull someone out against their will. I say love doesn't just stand back and watch the object of that love burn up. No-one GOD loves will burn in HEll.

I believe GOD loved me enough to ensure I would spend my eternity with HIM. Maybe HE was a choice you made, good for you. I was a choice HE made, good for me. I am glad this was not left up to me and I am glad GOD answers the prayer "Thy will be done".

And I pray to always be a puppet of GOD and to never be allowed to make my own decisions. I know that I can trust HIM and not me. My life is not my own, I am bought with a price. Thank you JESUS.

[Smalcald]

Show me where Paul, who's conversion is fully documented, where and when exactly is he saved? How did Paul decide anything when Christ struck him blind? How about Peter when was his conversion shown in scripture? Was Peter saved when he denied Christ? Was Peter saved when before denying Christ he said that Jesus was Christ? When did it happen, what was the moment? No one including these guys themselves can point to the moment in time idea, they simply had faith and they ran the race, they made it to the end. What if Peter had died right after denying he even knew Christ? What does Jesus say about those who deny Him in front of men? You

[kross]

That is funny. It is in scripture and reads as follows.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Being a partaker is more then conviction. Look it up.

HIS grace to you,

And there in lies the mis-understanding.

I understand that this is a scripture specific to those it was written to. Hebrews who might have considered leaving the truth of JESUS to return to the old ways, and trusting in the old sacrifices. It is not something that refers to me in any way.

You feel that this "Partaking" means "Indwelling". I see it as someone who has been in the presence of and possibly even touched by, but not necessarily indwelt.

One stands near a fire and feels the heat and enjoys the comfort. One has not been indwelt by that fire and should they turn away from it, there is no other source of warmth. If that fire becomes a part of them, they willl be changed and it will be permanent.

Now, as you well know, we can toss scriptures back and forth forever. There are clearly scriptures that are interpretted either direction based on which foundation one comes from. I have reached a point in my life where I do not put so great a concern on which point anyone comes from. If one believes he can loose his salvation, it likely helps him to stay on a narrow path. If one doesn't believe he can loose his salvation, than it likely gives that person the freedom to trust in GOD to keep him saved and safe as he moves into areas and deals with people and situation that cause the latter to fear being influenced.

My strength comes from my relationship with JESUS. It is not anything that is of me or my will. It is simply born of the nature GOD has given me. I walk in this relationship trusting my life and salvation to JESUS. Now, maybe it's true that this is just me being blind to some scriptures or maybe it is born of too much trust. I just do not think a person can trust JESUS too much. Particularly with regard to salvation.

So, I lean on those scriptures that clearly tell me I am adopted by GOD as one of HIS children, sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT who is given to me as a gaurantee until the day of my redemption.

It's all good.

HIS Peace to you and yours

If you look at Hebrews in this light, then you have to also look at most of scripture in the same manner. Where ever it does not say Gentiles, you must reject. All scriptures were written to a specific group of people, or a certain person, and not you, so you have to just read it like a book and learn what God did for this group or person, and not apply it to your life. You limit His word this way.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New King James Version)

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Was this scripture only for Timothy or was it for everyone to learn from? It was sent to just Timothy.

Looking at Hebrews 6:4-6 and saying that it was just about the Hebrew mindset and history is wrong according to what Paul wrote Timothy. To think that Hebrews 6:4-6 is just a warning to the Hebrews limits God so much, and He is not limited by man. This passage ties in to what has been said about the falling away in the last days. Scripture confirms scripture.

All scriture has to be read in context. For instance;

Do you really believe that Paul was saying his letters were scripture? No. He was refering to the old testament, not the writings of himself or his contemporaries.

Yes, the BIBLE is the word of GOD. Inerrant and perfect. But it does have to be read in context.

[OneLight]

That is funny. It is in scripture and reads as follows.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Being a partaker is more then conviction. Look it up.

HIS grace to you,

And there in lies the mis-understanding.

I understand that this is a scripture specific to those it was written to. Hebrews who might have considered leaving the truth of JESUS to return to the old ways, and trusting in the old sacrifices. It is not something that refers to me in any way.

You feel that this "Partaking" means "Indwelling". I see it as someone who has been in the presence of and possibly even touched by, but not necessarily indwelt.

One stands near a fire and feels the heat and enjoys the comfort. One has not been indwelt by that fire and should they turn away from it, there is no other source of warmth. If that fire becomes a part of them, they willl be changed and it will be permanent.

Now, as you well know, we can toss scriptures back and forth forever. There are clearly scriptures that are interpretted either direction based on which foundation one comes from. I have reached a point in my life where I do not put so great a concern on which point anyone comes from. If one believes he can loose his salvation, it likely helps him to stay on a narrow path. If one doesn't believe he can loose his salvation, than it likely gives that person the freedom to trust in GOD to keep him saved and safe as he moves into areas and deals with people and situation that cause the latter to fear being influenced.

My strength comes from my relationship with JESUS. It is not anything that is of me or my will. It is simply born of the nature GOD has given me. I walk in this relationship trusting my life and salvation to JESUS. Now, maybe it's true that this is just me being blind to some scriptures or maybe it is born of too much trust. I just do not think a person can trust JESUS too much. Particularly with regard to salvation.

So, I lean on those scriptures that clearly tell me I am adopted by GOD as one of HIS children, sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT who is given to me as a gaurantee until the day of my redemption.

It's all good.

HIS Peace to you and yours

If you look at Hebrews in this light, then you have to also look at most of scripture in the same manner. Where ever it does not say Gentiles, you must reject. All scriptures were written to a specific group of people, or a certain person, and not you, so you have to just read it like a book and learn what God did for this group or person, and not apply it to your life. You limit His word this way.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New King James Version)

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Was this scripture only for Timothy or was it for everyone to learn from? It was sent to just Timothy.

Looking at Hebrews 6:4-6 and saying that it was just about the Hebrew mindset and history is wrong according to what Paul wrote Timothy. To think that Hebrews 6:4-6 is just a warning to the Hebrews limits God so much, and He is not limited by man. This passage ties in to what has been said about the falling away in the last days. Scripture confirms scripture.

All scriture has to be read in context. For instance;

Do you really believe that Paul was saying his letters were scripture? No. He was refering to the old testament, not the writings of himself or his contemporaries.

Yes, the BIBLE is the word of GOD. Inerrant and perfect. But it does have to be read in context.

I am using the term scripture because that is what we call it, and you know this. Just in case you didn't, you do now, so care to answer the question?

[leoxiii]

Once again Shiloh, Amen.

There is no biblical example of a true Christian who left the faith or "lost" their salvation.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized [cf. Mark 16:16], he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. 14 Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

And you think because Peter rebuked him this way that he was condemned? Lost his salvation? Verse 16 clearly state the HOLY SPIRIT had not yet come upon them and Simon clearly had not recieved the HOLY SPIRIT or he would also have seem how the laying on of hands perveyed HIM. I do not have my Bible handy, but I do believe that Simon responded with a prayer of repentence.

Try again.

The words of Scripture are crystal clear here: Simon believed. He sinned.** Peter told him he was going to perish. I would think that the formula to be used by a Bible-only Christian would be: "If the words of Scripture do not support my doctrine, then my doctrine has to go," and not the other way around.

**[To this very day we still call this particular sin "simony"!]

[leoxiii]

Show me where Paul, who's conversion is fully documented, where and when exactly is he saved?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

[Guest shiloh357]

There are no examples in the Bible of anyone either giving up their salvation or God revoking anyone's salvation.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized, he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. 14 Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

That is not an example of what a person who gave up their faith. It is an example of a very deceived and misguided individual.

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes Jesus did say that we must be born again what does that have to do with what we are taking about?

Being born again is an event. It is not a process over the course of life.

He did not say how long that would take or exactly how that would happen. That is something you have added. Yes you have to believe, yes you must have faith, yes you must confess with your mouth and believe with your heart. Those are all descriptions, they say nothing about exactly how those came about for an individual outside of the Holy Spirit; they say nothing about a one moment in time or decisions or some specific "event" happening in some certain way. Those are all conditions you have added and they are certainly a rich part of SBC and most evengelical doctrine, and there is nothing wrong with the doctrine per-se as long as it is not believed to be some sort of requirement added to faith.

The problem is with that is the entire point of preaching the gospel is bring people to an hour of decision. The gospel is either believed or rejected. That means you have to make a decision.

Children have faith, the mentally ill and mentally challenged have faith, many people have faith which was born and nurtured in the their whole life. Superimposing some sort of one moment in time decision/experience as a requirement of faith; is not in scripture.

How God deals with the mentally challenged and the extremely young is up to Him. Generally speaking though, EVERYONE makes a decision at some point in their life.

Of course no one is saved automatically that is not what I am saying at all. We have the power to turn our backs on the Gospel, we have free will; we can certainly run. Paul could have run away when Christ spoke to him, but he did not he obeyed and he pressed on.

Peter did not run away after he denied that he knew Christ. No even in his shame he stayed and eventually took up his cross also for Christ. I see you sidestepped most of my earlier points. Was Peter saved when He denied that he knew Jesus? When exactly was Paul saved, when did he have his decision? There is simply nothing in scripture about this moment in time instant decision theology.

It is clear to me that you are responding to some mixed up idea you have in your head as to what I am saying. You responding to your own misperception of what I am saying and you are bent on assigning your misperception to me no matter how many times I clarify what I mean. This is no longer a profitble use of my time.

[Guest shiloh357]

Show me where Paul, who's conversion is fully documented, where and when exactly is he saved? How did Paul decide anything when Christ struck him blind? How about Peter when was his conversion shown in scripture? Was Peter saved when he denied Christ? Was Peter saved when before denying Christ he said that Jesus was Christ? When did it happen, what was the moment? No one including these guys themselves can point to the moment in time idea, they simply had faith and they ran the race, they made it to the end. What if Peter had died right after denying he even knew Christ? What does Jesus say about those who deny Him in front of men? You