can salvation be lost?

[leoxiii]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

Again, I did not ask for that. I asked for one example of a person who was truly saved and voluntarily gave up his salvation. You didn't provide it.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

[pokemaughan]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

Again, I did not ask for that. I asked for one example of a person who was truly saved and voluntarily gave up his salvation. You didn't provide it.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

Yep... I hope that unity will remain regardless.

[Smalcald]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

Again, I did not ask for that. I asked for one example of a person who was truly saved and voluntarily gave up his salvation. You didn't provide it.

So someone who scripture says has faith was not saved? Once again we see your doctrine sneaking in to impact the words of scripture and faith itself. Faith in Christ IS salvation.

Scripture said Simon had faith. We must stick with scripture even when it may lead us away from our doctrines we have learned.

[OneLight]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

Calvinism doesn't believe a Christian can fall away, no matter how ungodly they act, unless it evolves murder, child molestation or some other hideous sin and then they will claim, "oh, they were never saved in the first place".

I agree OSAS doctrine is the strongest and best lie that Satan has ever conceived. It will take much more then debating to convince those who are under its power to see the truth.

That's funny. I believe that the teaching that you cannot trust your life to JESUS enough to keep you saved is the biggest lie from Satan.

I asked a simple question before.

Since the Bible is very clear that JESUS is able to keep you from falling and present you blameless before the throne of grace, is HE willing to keep you from falling ( keep you from turning away) and prevent you blameless before the throne?

I believe HE is willing to keep me from falling and to present me blameless before the throne.

Lets look at the semantics here. To fall incurs an accident, as I fell off the ladder. So, in that, I agree. But, if I jumped, it is intentional. Again, I agree that if one believes in their heart that Jesus is the Christ, then they have eternal security through Him. Yet, if one says in their heart that there is no God after once believing, then they do not. We are always responsible for our decisions if we do not repent.

I won't continue to repeat the same scripture over and over again, since you do not believe that anyone can turn away on their own.

MOre accurately, I do not believe anyone who has been given the new heart, who is indwelt by the HOLY SPIRT, whos nature has been changed from one at emnity with GOD to being one drawn to HIM and being kept by HIS love, would ever have it in their heart to turn away.

To say cannot implies that there would be a desire to turn away. If you feel that "Fall" in this usage is something accidental, and JESUS would keep that from happening, then it is pretty much impossible for me to believe a person "can" turn away since a person would not want to and JESUS would not let them do it by accident.

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

[Guest shiloh357]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

Again, I did not ask for that. I asked for one example of a person who was truly saved and voluntarily gave up his salvation. You didn't provide it.

So someone who scripture says has faith was not saved? Once again we see your doctrine sneaking in to impact the words of scripture and faith itself. Faith in Christ IS salvation.

Scripture said Simon had faith. We must stick with scripture even when it may lead us away from our doctrines we have learned.

What does that have to do with my request. I asked for ONE biblical example of a person who voluntarily gave up his/her Christian faith. Obviously, you are having some reading comprehension issues, as I did not say anything about someone not having faith that the Bible says has faith. If you can't read, then don't respond. I am tired of you assigning things to me that I did not say. Is that clear, or do I need to type a little slower for you???

[Smalcald]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

Again, I did not ask for that. I asked for one example of a person who was truly saved and voluntarily gave up his salvation. You didn't provide it.

So someone who scripture says has faith was not saved? Once again we see your doctrine sneaking in to impact the words of scripture and faith itself. Faith in Christ IS salvation.

Scripture said Simon had faith. We must stick with scripture even when it may lead us away from our doctrines we have learned.

What does that have to do with my request. I asked for ONE biblical example of a person who voluntarily gave up his/her Christian faith. Obviously, you are having some reading comprehension issues, as I did not say anything about someone not having faith that the Bible says has faith. If you can't read, then don't respond. I am tired of you assigning things to me that I did not say. Is that clear, or do I need to type a little slower for you???

I do notice that you go personal when you are losing an argument, which is a rather bad trait.

Are you saying that Simon did not voluntarily want to buy the Holy Spirit that he was forced to do that? I would say it is a perfect example of someone who had faith who had salvation who then denied Christ and was not saved. Which is the point of this thread. Simon was saved he had faith according to scripture and yet in the end he did not persevere.

Once again scripture is clear. I am sure you would say of course that the scripture is wrong, that Simon Mangus was not "truly saved" even though he had faith, so I guess faith is not enough in your doctrinal world.

[leoxiii]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

Again, I did not ask for that. I asked for one example of a person who was truly saved and voluntarily gave up his salvation. You didn't provide it.

So someone who scripture says has faith was not saved? Once again we see your doctrine sneaking in to impact the words of scripture and faith itself. Faith in Christ IS salvation.

Scripture said Simon had faith. We must stick with scripture even when it may lead us away from our doctrines we have learned.

What does that have to do with my request. I asked for ONE biblical example of a person who voluntarily gave up his/her Christian faith. Obviously, you are having some reading comprehension issues, as I did not say anything about someone not having faith that the Bible says has faith. If you can't read, then don't respond. I am tired of you assigning things to me that I did not say. Is that clear, or do I need to type a little slower for you???

So much for us all tolerating each other's beliefs and opinions.

[Guest]

.... There is no such things as "Once Saved, Always Saved." That is a fictitious label that people have placed on Eternal Security because they misunderstand the doctrine. The doctrine of eternal security does not teach that a saved person can live in sin and their salvation is secure, no matter what. Unfortunately, though, that is how the doctrine is framed by its detractors, and as such, it makes it nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion about it. As long as one side continues to argue against Eternal Security from a warped perception of what the actual doctrine espouses, there is no use arguing or debating it.

Amen! It Is Strange Dear Brother, How Some Folk Attack The Faithfulness Of The Brethren

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 11:2-4

But The Children Of The Court Are Known

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:1

By Their Love For Each Other

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:14-16

And By Their Gentle

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Titus 3:2-3

Pointing To

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:25-26

Jesus

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:1-3

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... So, let me ask you, can one know for an absolute certainty they are saved this side of the Judgment Seat of God? ....

Yes! Salvation Starts With Jesus

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 Peter 1:18-20

And Continues With Jesus

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2

And Never Ends With Jesus

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25

And If Anybody Tries To Tell You Otherwise, Just Check The Record Beloved And Rest In Jesus

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:11-13

Love Joe

I Love You Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

I do notice that you go personal when you are losing an argument, which is a rather bad trait.

I am not losing an argument. YOU are trying to refute an argument I did not raise. Misrepresenting my position is a bad trait on your part.

Are you saying that Simon did not voluntarily want to buy the Holy Spirit that he was forced to do that? I would say it is a perfect example of someone who had faith who had salvation who then denied Christ and was not saved.

That was not what I was referring to. I specifcally asked for a biblical example of a person who decided they no longer wanted to be a Christian. I wanted someone to produce an example of a person who basically said, "I no longer want Christ and have decided to discard my faith." I did not ask for an example of someone who "lost" their salvation. Again, try reading what I said instead of reacting to some misperception you have swirling around in your head.

Which is the point of this thread. Simon was saved he had faith according to scripture and yet in the end he did not persevere.

No, that is not point. We were discussing whether or not someone can voluntarily walk away from their faith. My point is that we have no example of that in the NT.

So, far, no one has been able to provide an example to refute me.

Once again scripture is clear. I am sure you would say of course that the scripture is wrong, that Simon Mangus was not "truly saved" even though he had faith, so I guess faith is not enough in your doctrinal world.

Yeah, Scriptur is clear. The problem is with your inability or refusal to correctly frame the position I have clarified and reclarified multiple times. Again, you are trying to argue with me over an issue I am not raising.

[humanoid]

I have alwyas believed that salvation could not be lost and i have seen great scripture supporting both that it can and cannot be lost.

what do others think and what scripture leads you to think this?

i'm well aware there have been numerous replies and for all i know there's a heated debate in the midst of this post but i will just say something quick:

no, salvation cannot be lost. no person jesus saves will be snatched out of his grasp. what god opens no one can close.

there is however a strong illusion that salvation can be lost. this is because most professing christians are not truly saved. and therefore when they abandon christianity entirely, and say they've "been there done that", those who lack discernment foolishly believe their claims.

it is possible for a true christian to doubt their salvation and live in despair most of their life because of lack of faith. they may even die in such a condition. but in most cases god intervenes and makes the individual know that they are his child and that no matter what they do, no matter how hard they try, they cannot escape their father's grasp. i know this reality from personal experience. we are mere pieces of dust in this universe. if the almighty cosmic vacuum decides to suck us up into his presence, there's nothing we can do to deter it.

take care

Edited October 16, 2009 by humanoid