How did the early churches operate?

[Botz]

Thanks for the update.

I am pretty limited in what I see and hear just from my own congregation. In general everyone I know from my Church despises the Islamists who want to destroy Israel.

Also they are silently killing and persecuting the Arab Christians among them who are still left in the Middle East.

I know among Lefties it is all the vogue to hate Israel and support the terrorists. It is too bad when Churches give these guys a venue to speak.

I know we are talking outside of the threads intention so I will just be brief....two points.

1. All of us can be fairly insular at times, and Church groups are especially prone to this, or have their own mission and vision that to be fair has not made real time for what really goes on in Israel, or how it directly effects us and our perception with what the Holy Spirit is doing at this time with the 'apple of his eye', and what opposition arises because of this.

2. Yes we also must not forget many Arab Christians who have been systematically persecuted and forced to leave Israel...but in their ranks is a deal of confusion and compromise, and we need discernment to sort out what is really going on, because quite frankly some groups are all but Moslem in name, and yet welcomed with open arms when they talk to other Christians and tell of the Israeli atrocities.

Lastly I don't for one minute believe Israel does not make mistakes and sometimes does things wrong....but in comparison to other basically secular nations, she is comparatively saintly....but held to a different standard.

[Botz]

Botz, the majority of the world would rather have their belief handed to them through others whom they put their trust in and not by researching the subject matter themselves to find the truth. News today paints a tainted picture of Israel, and this is where many people get their information. As it is written, so shall it be ... 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

What are they falling away from? The truth.

Onelight....Sadly that is too true mate...the modern fascination with news is also big money and often political, which is why it is also lop-sided and by and large in some cases prints what is expedient or the policy of the editor.

Mizzdy....I know the wagons are circling...or is it the vultures, but these are nevertheless exciting though perilous times.

[Smalcald]

Botz,

It is the double standard that makes me nuts. If Mexico lobbed bombs at us and said they wanted to destroy our country we would not have as much restraint as Israel has shown toward say the people in Gaza.

As far as the Christian Arabs go, well I do support them, not against Israel, but against the countries they are stuck in, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Ethiopia, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.

I think they are forgotten people, they are our brothers in Christ and they have been Christians much longer than those of us in the West. Some of their Churches date back 1500 years; you know we brag that a Church was established in 1950.

But anyway this is the hard part as many indeed do not like Israel, I don't think they lose their salvation for disagreeing with the modern state of Israel, we must keep our eyes focused on Christ and not the ups and downs of politics in the Middle East. I will in general support a Christian over non-Christians that would include those who practice Judaism and those who practice Islam, as we are to support our family in Christ first according to Scripture. Of course Christians have often fought alongside the Israelis particularly in Lebanon, but have paid a heavy price for doing so in the long run; they have to live in these countries surrounded by Muslims.

As far as how the early congregations operated we may indeed want to simply look at some of the history of these original Christian churches in the Middle east, they were not planted by Europeans, but have always operated in the region being planted by the first Christians.

[leoxiii]

Not going to answer my question, leoxiii?

Was that before or after pagan influences infiltrated the church? What's St. Peter's Square doing with an Egyptian obelisk in it's square anyway?

The word "Obelisk" comes from the Greek obeliskos, meaning a prong for roasting. It is a stone that is frequently monolithic, of a quadrangular base, placed upright and ending with a pointed top. It was placed in the center of large open spaces in the temples of the solar god RA. They arose, by the time of the predynastic period cults, to a great sacred stone which was raised in the Temple of Heliopolis, the "City of the Sun." As with the pyramids, this monument had a primitive relation with the solar cult.

http://www.egipto.com/obeliscos/histo2.html

The same reason the Vatican does not destroy any art.

1 Corinthians 10:26 The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 27 If any of them that believe not, invite you, and you will be willing to go; eat of any thing that is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake. 28 But if any man say: This has been sacrificed to idols, do not eat of it for his sake that told it, and for conscience' sake. 29 Conscience, I say, not thy own, but the other's. For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? 30 If I partake with thanksgiving, why am I evil spoken of, for that for which I give thanks?

Want to know about the Star of David?

http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/jewis...r-of-david.html

Talk about gross misinfomation!!!

I know. The whole obelisk thingy is just a load of doo-doo.

No, it is the claim that the Star of David is of pagan origin that is a load of doo-doo. It is nothing but conspiracy nonsense. It may have been hijacked by pagans and Kabbalists, but it is not of pagan origin.

And you know this how?

Please provide the archeological finds concerning the Star of David that rule out the possibility of it having pagan origins.

[Guest yod]

1. All of us can be fairly insular at times, and Church groups are especially prone to this, or have their own mission and vision that to be fair has not made real time for what really goes on in Israel, or how it directly effects us and our perception with what the Holy Spirit is doing at this time with the 'apple of his eye', and what opposition arises because of this.

And this is where I have an advantage and a viewpoint that very few people have. I travel constantly and was in 200 congregations last year, the year before, and probably even more in 2010. I've been in every denomination you can imagine on 4 continents (so far). I'm not talking theory or assumption here. I'm testifying about what I've witnessed in person.

The largest segment of the "church" is anti-semetic, pure and simple. Argue that if you wish but you will be wrong. I don't hate christians as was accused of me (or I wouldn't be in so many churches) yet I'm also not going to sugar coat the truth to make us feel good about ourselves. I'm extremely concerned because I have become convinced that there is another holocaust coming when I can't get christians, of all people, to even look at the truth; much less accept it and do something about it.

In America, christian anti-semitism is kept in check by a strong foundation of religious liberty and civil rights but I grew in a town were the KKK was strong in the Baptist church and there no jews even allowed in the city under threat of death. Outside of America it's rampant and openly proclaimed as Botz has pointed out even in the UK. Most of those in the "church" holding anti-semitic views don't even realize it....kinda like bad breath. They have grown up familiar with the taste and don't notice it anymore. This is just what they've always known so when you challenge it, they interpret the truth as a threat because they've never heard it preached before in their pulpit. A humble christian will listen and test it. The arrogant reject it without investigation or try to justify it as we've seen in this thread.

The "church" began redefining the meaning of words with Origin in the 2nd Century and everything that came after was defiled by devices of theological commentary. The word "church" is a good example and even though the idea that the "church" replaced Israel can't be found in the bible, a majority of christians believe it because that is what has been taught since Origin.

It wasn't until the KJV in 1611 (1,400 years after Origin) that average people could read the Bible for themselves and slowly since then the blinders have been falling off. Once Israel was re-established as a nation, the undoing of centuries of misinterpreting the Prophets began. Yet even that only happens where people actually read AND study the Bible for themselves (as opposed to listening to sermons)

And still.....no one in this thread wants to address the judensau.

There is no refuting the anti-semitism of the "church" on that one.

[OneLight]

I will not address the judensau because of it's sickness, not that I agree with it at all. It is purely disgusting.

[Guest yod]

I will not address the judensau because of it's sickness, not that I agree with it at all. It is purely disgusting.

yes, it absolutely is...and yet was on every major Cathedral and Church of Europe for many centuries. It still exists on 29 churches that I know of...

where is the outrage from christians over that if they don't approve???

[Smalcald]

And still.....no one in this thread wants to address the judensau.

Yod did I miss something? What is judensau? Maybe I missed your linking to it earlier sorry, what does it mean?

[mizzdy]

1. All of us can be fairly insular at times, and Church groups are especially prone to this, or have their own mission and vision that to be fair has not made real time for what really goes on in Israel, or how it directly effects us and our perception with what the Holy Spirit is doing at this time with the 'apple of his eye', and what opposition arises because of this.

And this is where I have an advantage and a viewpoint that very few people have. I travel constantly and was in 200 congregations last year, the year before, and probably even more in 2010. I've been in every denomination you can imagine on 4 continents (so far). I'm not talking theory or assumption here. I'm testifying about what I've witnessed in person.

The largest segment of the "church" is anti-semetic, pure and simple. Argue that if you wish but you will be wrong. I don't hate christians as was accused of me (or I wouldn't be in so many churches) yet I'm also not going to sugar coat the truth to make us feel good about ourselves. I'm extremely concerned because I have become convinced that there is another holocaust coming when I can't get christians, of all people, to even look at the truth; much less accept it and do something about it.

In America, christian anti-semitism is kept in check by a strong foundation of religious liberty and civil rights but I grew in a town were the KKK was strong in the Baptist church and there no jews even allowed in the city under threat of death. Outside of America it's rampant and openly proclaimed as Botz has pointed out even in the UK. Most of those in the "church" holding anti-semitic views don't even realize it....kinda like bad breath. They have grown up familiar with the taste and don't notice it anymore. This is just what they've always known so when you challenge it, they interpret the truth as a threat because they've never heard it preached before in their pulpit. A humble christian will listen and test it. The arrogant reject it without investigation or try to justify it as we've seen in this thread.

The "church" began redefining the meaning of words with Origin in the 2nd Century and everything that came after was defiled by devices of theological commentary. The word "church" is a good example and even though the idea that the "church" replaced Israel can't be found in the bible, a majority of christians believe it because that is what has been taught since Origin.

It wasn't until the KJV in 1611 (1,400 years after Origin) that average people could read the Bible for themselves and slowly since then the blinders have been falling off. Once Israel was re-established as a nation, the undoing of centuries of misinterpreting the Prophets began. Yet even that only happens where people actually read AND study the Bible for themselves (as opposed to listening to sermons)

And still.....no one in this thread wants to address the judensau.

There is no refuting the anti-semitism of the "church" on that one.

Yod your posts give a bit of hope that someone will read it and their eyes will be opened to what you write. Its rampant as you say and so true that many do not even realize they hold this view. Gods blessings brother.

[OneLight]

And still.....no one in this thread wants to address the judensau.

Yod did I miss something? What is judensau? Maybe I missed your linking to it earlier sorry, what does it mean?

I highly suggest that you Google it. It is too disgusting to even discuss it ...