Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[lekh l'kha]

That is the Revelation of the final time....not the final time there will be revelation.

Next point?

Who will be chosen to receive this "next Revelation" of Jesus Christ of which you speak. You? Will you receive the next Revelation of Jesus Christ before He returnd, or after He returns?

[Massorite]

According to all early Christian and Church history, John was the last surviving apostle when he received the Revelation, which begins:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ..." and ends,

"... If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book." (Rev 22:18-19).

Whose Revelation?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

It's saturated with sevens, a number which represents completeness, because the Hebrew root word shaba (which means "to be complete") is the root-word for shabat (sabbath) and shib'ah (seven). The Bible (the revelation of God to man) opens with a cycle of seven and is completed with a book starurated with sevens and cycles of seven.

The final Revelation of God to man was given by Jesus Christ to the apostle John, in the days when he was the last surviving apostle. It was not given to a non-apostle.

I wonder why?

Lekh

Lekh again you are DEAD wrong "Daily some arte becoming disciples in the name of of Christ,... who are also receiving GIFTS, each as he is worth. These are illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another Boy teaching, and another of the fear of God". JUSTIN MARTYR He was born 100 years after the death of Christ and died in the year 165

"Wretched men, indeed! They wish to be pseudo-prophets for they EXCLUDE the gift of prophecy from the church. They hold themselves aloof (separated) from the communion of the brothern. We must conclude, moreover that these men cannot admit the apostle Paul, either. For, in his letter to the Corinthians, he speaks of prophetical gifts. And recognizes men and women prophesying IN THE CHURCH. IRENAEUS He was born sometime in the second century AFTER the death of Christ and died in 202

"What is nobler then to tread under foot the gods of the nations, to EXORCISE EVIL SPIRITS, TO PERFORM CURES (healings), to SEEK DIVINE REVELATIONS, and to live to God? These are the pleasures, these are the spectacles (miracles) that befit Christian men" TERTULLIAN He was born 160 years after the death of Christ and lived until 220

"The name of Jesus can still REMOVE DISTRACTIONS from the minds of men, EXPEL DEMONS AND ALSO TAKE AWAY DISEASES. Furthermore, it produces a marvelous meekness of spirit and a complete change of character" ORIGEN

The Jews no longer have prophets or miracles. Yet, traces of those things are STILL found among Christians to a considerable extent. Some of these miracles are more remarkable then any that existed among the Jews. I HAVE WITNESSED THESE MYSELF". Again ORIGEN. He was born 185 years AFTER the death of Christ and lived until 254

These are quotes from the leaders of the early church. Three of these men were all born after the death of John the Revelator who died in 100 AD. ALL of them were born after the death of the last apostle and they all are telling us that ALL OF THE GIFTS were still working long after the death of John the Revelator.

So just what early church and early church history are you talking about? How about if you give us some quotes from early church leaders and historical record to back yourself up. Where did you learn this stuff from? Who has been teaching you this stuff? Where in this world did you get the idea that God is no longer in the business of healing the sick and lame or casting out demons?

Who ever taught you that the early church or any one in the early church believed that the last of the gifts died out with the Apostle John is telling or teaching you a LIE from from the pits of hell. These men I just quoted were the early church and not one of them have made the claims you have.

So what? Are they all lier's?

Brother you need to stop making statements that are dead wrong. If the early church believed such a thing then how come there is no PROOF of such a belief.

I believe that you are making false claims because that is what you have been taught rather then doing your own research in an effort to make sure you are not being fed a lie. NEVER EVER simply take any bodies word for what they claim is the truth with out first doing some research for your self. Pastor or no Pastor you should never take what they say to heart unless have made sure that they actually speaking the truth and not some made up lie.

[lekh l'kha]

Lekh again you are DEAD wrong "Daily some arte becoming disciples in the name of of Christ,... who are also receiving GIFTS, each as he is worth. These are illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another Boy teaching, and another of the fear of God". JUSTIN MARTYR He was born 100 years after the death of Christ and died in the year 165

Justin Martyr also said,

"And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."(12)

And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ." (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 39).

This is Preterist teaching and denies the restoration of Israel to God and to their land. You gonna believe everything Justin Martyr says? Or you gonna pick and choose to believe what Justin Martyr said whenever it suits your views?

"Wretched men, indeed! They wish to be pseudo-prophets for they EXCLUDE the gift of prophecy from the church. They hold themselves aloof (separated) from the communion of the brothern. We must conclude, moreover that these men cannot admit the apostle Paul, either. For, in his letter to the Corinthians, he speaks of prophetical gifts. And recognizes men and women prophesying IN THE CHURCH. IRENAEUS He was born sometime in the second century AFTER the death of Christ and died in 202

Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles, and he taught that Israel is the Church. He emphasized the unique position of authority of the bishop of Rome.[26][27]

With the lists of bishops to which Irenaeus referred, the later doctrine of the apostolic succession of the bishops could be linked.

You gonna believe everything that Irenaeus taught? Or you gonna pick and choose to believe onky those parts of what Irenaeus taught that suits you?

"What is nobler then to tread under foot the gods of the nations, to EXORCISE EVIL SPIRITS, TO PERFORM CURES (healings), to SEEK DIVINE REVELATIONS, and to live to God? These are the pleasures, these are the spectacles (miracles) that befit Christian men" TERTULLIAN He was born 160 years after the death of Christ and lived until 220

What is nobler? I would say the part I will highlight in red below:

"The name of Jesus can still REMOVE DISTRACTIONS from the minds of men, EXPEL DEMONS AND ALSO TAKE AWAY DISEASES. Furthermore, [b]it produces a marvelous meekness of spirit and a complete change of character" ORIGEN

The Jews no longer have prophets or miracles. Yet, traces of those things are STILL found among Christians to a considerable extent. Some of these miracles are more remarkable then any that existed among the Jews. I HAVE WITNESSED THESE MYSELF". Again ORIGEN. He was born 185 years AFTER the death of Christ and lived until 254

ORIGEN:

interpreted scripture allegorically and showed himself to be a Neo-Pythagorean, and Neo-Platonist.[5] Like Plotinus, he wrote that the soul passes through successive stages of incarnation before eventually reaching God.[5] He imagined even demons being reunited with God. For Origen, God was the First Principle, and Christ, the Logos, was subordinate to him.[5] His views of a hierarchical structure in the Trinity, the temporality of matter, "the fabulous preexistence of souls," and "the monstrous restoration which follows from it" were declared anathema in the 6th century.[6] (see wikipedia, Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, Columbia Encyclopedia, etc - they all say the same things about these early church fathers you quote.

So you gonna believe what they taught? Or you gonna pick and choose to believe what they taught? I haven't even gone into the errors of Tertullian which even goes against this fourms SOF.

So just what early church and early church history are you talking about? How about if you give us some quotes from early church leaders and historical record to back yourself up. Where did you learn this stuff from? Who has been teaching you this stuff? Where in this world did you get the idea that God is no longer in the business of healing the sick and lame or casting out demons?

Who ever taught you that the early church or any one in the early church believed that the last of the gifts died out with the Apostle John is telling or teaching you a LIE from from the pits of hell. These men I just quoted were the early church and not one of them have made the claims you have.

So what? Are they all lier's?

Brother you need to stop making statements that are dead wrong. If the early church believed such a thing then how come there is no PROOF of such a belief.

I believe that you are making false claims because that is what you have been taught rather then doing your own research in an effort to make sure you are not being fed a lie. NEVER EVER simply take any bodies word for what they claim is the truth with out first doing some research for your self. Pastor or no Pastor you should never take what they say to heart unless have made sure that they actually speaking the truth and not some made up lie.

Brother you need to stop getting so emotionally-charged and just read what I say, instead of reading things into what I say that I never said. All I said was that all early Church history states that John was the last surviving apostle when he received the Revelation - if you don't like it - go fight with the early church historians about that fact, because I never said it. What I did say was, I wonder why the Lord gave His Revelation to the apostle John and not to another Christian, if all Christians have the same gifts and ministry the apostles had?

I also never said - even once in this thread, that God doesn't "do" miracles today - I even mentioned a miracle of healing I know of personally because it happened to a woman who goes to a church accross the road from me and I know quite a few people who go to that church - they prayed for her when she was dying, and she was completely healed. But those who prayed for her never claimed they have "the gift of healing" because JESUS healed her.

I'm not saying miracles won't happen if you lay your hands on someone's head and pray for that person - I'm telling you that in the New Testament, nine of the ten records of miracles recorded FROM ACTS THROUGH TO JUDE were performed by the apostles and Barnabus when he was with Paul, and one was performed by Stephen before he was martyred, and PAUL (not me) called the miracles performed by the apostles "the signs of an apostle".

Brother I think it's you who should stop listening to everything your Pastors say in the churches, and go and search the scriptures from Acts through to Jude like I did. Did you know that it is written that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirt AGAIN after they were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost? Did you know that we are exhroted to keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit, and that the filling of the Holy Spirit is not a once-off thing, and yet being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit is one and the same thing?

Did you know that if someone is filled with the HOLY Spirit he will be filled with the FRUIT of the Spirit? Did you know that the Biblical record from Acts through to Jude shows that not everyone filled with the Holy Spirit also talks in tongues, heals the sick, etc - some receive other gifts - such as understanding, or knowledge, or the ability to teach well, OR the heart to serve with love and concern for all they serve?

I think it's you who needs to stop believing evrything you are told and go search the scriptutes yourself, brother.

I don't think of Christians who don't agree with me as "non-Christians" or as people who are "bound in their blindness" - I don't THINK of them like that. But brother this thread has made me realize once and for all (despite the fact that I don't want to think like this), that mabe when Jesus comes back He's going to find a church filled with spiritual arrogance, pride and bigotry, and casting out demons and healing the sick in His name:

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?

And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock. And the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house. And it did not fall, for it was founded on a rock.

And everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them shall be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain came down, and the floods came, and the wind blew and beat on that house. And it fell, and great was its fall." (Mat 7:22-27)

Priorities.

Lekh

[Guest yod]

That is the Revelation of the final time....not the final time there will be revelation.

Next point?

Who will be chosen to receive this "next Revelation" of Jesus Christ of which you speak. You? Will you receive the next Revelation of Jesus Christ before He returnd, or after He returns?

None of that makes any sense to me. I haven't read the entire thread but are you of the opinion that God has been silent since Yochanan was on Patmos?

[lekh l'kha]

"And when He had called to Him His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease." (Mat 10:1)

Of all the multitudes who believed in Jesus (of whom there were over 500 still left after His crucifixion according to the gospels), why is it that we read in the gospels of Jesus espcially calling and choosing only 12, if all are apostles? What reason did He have to set aside 12 of all the others?

Were the other believers not also called and chosen? Of course they were, or they couldn't be saved. So why the gospel's emphasis on the twelve and their calling? Was there absolutely no special calling for the apostles, no special mission, no special authority, no special power?

Why do the gospels mention the calling of each apostle specifically, and by name:

"And He said to them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Mat 4:19), etc , etc?

What about all the others who were called?

If there was no special calling of the apostles and all Christians have the same special calling as the apostles, then why do the gospels and Acts even mention twelve Chistians especially?

Lekh

[Guest yod]

"And when He had called to Him His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease." (Mat 10:1)

Of all the multitudes who believed in Jesus (of whom there were over 500 still left after His crucifixion according to the gospels), why is it that we read in the gospels of Jesus espcially calling and choosing only 12, if all are apostles? What reason did He have to set aside 12 of all the others?

Were the other believers not also called and chosen? Of course they were, or they couldn't be saved. So why the gospel's emphasis on the twelve and their calling? Was there absolutely no special calling for the apostles, no special mission, no special authority, no special power?

Why do the gospels mention the calling of each apostle specifically, and by name:

"And He said to them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Mat 4:19), etc , etc?

What about all the others who were called?

If there was no special calling of the apostles and all Christians have the same special calling as the apostles, then why do the gospels and Acts even mention twelve Chistians especially?

Lekh

They have the unique honor of being the first to receive Him

After that, they're pretty much still just simple fishermen who had their lives rocked.

[lekh l'kha]

"And when He had called to Him His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease." (Mat 10:1)

Of all the multitudes who believed in Jesus (of whom there were over 500 still left after His crucifixion according to the gospels), why is it that we read in the gospels of Jesus espcially calling and choosing only 12, if all are apostles? What reason did He have to set aside 12 of all the others?

Were the other believers not also called and chosen? Of course they were, or they couldn't be saved. So why the gospel's emphasis on the twelve and their calling? Was there absolutely no special calling for the apostles, no special mission, no special authority, no special power?

Why do the gospels mention the calling of each apostle specifically, and by name:

"And He said to them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Mat 4:19), etc , etc?

What about all the others who were called?

If there was no special calling of the apostles and all Christians have the same special calling as the apostles, then why do the gospels and Acts even mention twelve Chistians especially?

Lekh

They have the unique honor of being the first to receive Him

After that, they're pretty much still just simple fishermen who had their lives rocked.

And Oh how the church needs simple fisherman today whose lives have been truly rocked - but today they want to be the ones rocking the lives of others.

Lekh

[lekh l'kha]

That is the Revelation of the final time....not the final time there will be revelation.

Next point?

Who will be chosen to receive this "next Revelation" of Jesus Christ of which you speak. You? Will you receive the next Revelation of Jesus Christ before He returnd, or after He returns?

None of that makes any sense to me. I haven't read the entire thread but are you of the opinion that God has been silent since Yochanan was on Patmos?

Well, read the entire thread then

[Franky67]

Sorry Onelight but i dont see why you are taking issue with Franky`s attitude, he seems to be just stating his opinion to me. Its unavoidable and natural that you both say each other is wrong in their opinion, imo.

If Franky is wrong when says he has the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name, then i guess he will flee naked and wounded when he tries to cast them out.

Which raises an interesting point. If only the Apostles could cast out demons, whos going to do it now that they are gone? or have the demons stopped inhabiting people?

Apologies if you have answered this earlier or im adding to your words, thats not my intention.

JCISGD

As I understand the bible on the issue of The function of the Body of Christ today, ,,,,,

Jesus is the head, we (the church), are His body here on the earth. We are seated with Him at the Right hand of the Father in heavenly places, Eph 2:6.

Whatever we bind or loose here on earth, is bound and loosed in heaven, IOW, we take our instructions from the Holy Spirit , who is Christ, the Head of the body.

Jesus' words in the gospels tell us that He has given HIS BODY all power, (authority) over all the power of the enemy. (If we take Jesus' words as spoken only to the 12 or 70, then we are left out in the dark, because there are no specific words of instruction to the rest of the body of Christ in the gospels. ) No, Jesus gave instructions to the body of Christ, US.

As JCISGD said above, If I try to cast out demons by my name, or any other name, except Jesus, then I will fail.

The Body of Christ is completely equipped today, just as it was in the beginning, and if we don't realize the authority we have been given, then we will fail to carry out the instructions of Christ to His body, and as a result, we will fail to carry out the great commission.

I only bring up the issue of Yea or nay on the uniqueness of the 12 and 70, to illustrate how the belief that " they had it, and we don't", creates the feeling of inadequacy in the Body of Christ. which is a form of faithlessness .

I agree that the 12 were the foundation laid by Christ, someone had to be first, but that does not take away the fact that we all receive the fulness of the inheritance. the whole of Ephesians attests to that.

Does the world today not still need the power that was meant to accompany the gospel ?

[OneLight]

Sorry Onelight but i dont see why you are taking issue with Franky`s attitude, he seems to be just stating his opinion to me. Its unavoidable and natural that you both say each other is wrong in their opinion, imo.

If Franky is wrong when says he has the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name, then i guess he will flee naked and wounded when he tries to cast them out.

Which raises an interesting point. If only the Apostles could cast out demons, whos going to do it now that they are gone? or have the demons stopped inhabiting people?

Apologies if you have answered this earlier or im adding to your words, thats not my intention.

JCISGD

As I understand the bible on the issue of The function of the Body of Christ today, ,,,,,

Jesus is the head, we (the church), are His body here on the earth. We are seated with Him at the Right hand of the Father in heavenly places, Eph 2:6.

Whatever we bind or loose here on earth, is bound and loosed in heaven, IOW, we take our instructions from the Holy Spirit , who is Christ, the Head of the body.

Jesus' words in the gospels tell us that He has given HIS BODY all power, (authority) over all the power of the enemy. (If we take Jesus' words as spoken only to the 12 or 70, then we are left out in the dark, because there are no specific words of instruction to the rest of the body of Christ in the gospels. ) No, Jesus gave instructions to the body of Christ, US.

As JCISGD said above, If I try to cast out demons by my name, or any other name, except Jesus, then I will fail.

The Body of Christ is completely equipped today, just as it was in the beginning, and if we don't realize the authority we have been given, then we will fail to carry out the instructions of Christ to His body, and as a result, we will fail to carry out the great commission.

I only bring up the issue of Yea or nay on the uniqueness of the 12 and 70, to illustrate how the belief that " they had it, and we don't", creates the feeling of inadequacy in the Body of Christ. which is a form of faithlessness .

I agree that the 12 were the foundation laid by Christ, someone had to be first, but that does not take away the fact that we all receive the fulness of the inheritance. the whole of Ephesians attests to that.

Does the world today not still need the power that was meant to accompany the gospel ?

That is where you are wrong, Franky. When Christ went to the Father, He sent His Spirit to be with us and His Spirit gives gifts according the the Fathers will. You seem to be forgetting all about the Holy Spirit. One thing that stands out in your all posts is that you stand solely on the words of Jesus, as if the rest of scripture does not matter. I have to ask at this point, are you a Christ Only follower?