Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[lekh l'kha]

What IS a miracle? It is the feeding of the 2000 and 5000 with a few loafs of bread and a couple of fish; it is walking on water; it is cursing a tree to die; it is raising the dead; it is when the Holy Spirit transports a person from one area to another; it is the parting of the sea; it is a column of fire at night and of dirt during the day; it is the plagues that came upon Egypt; it is a burning bush that does not consume it by fire ... they are all through scripture. Healing is not part of the gift of miracles, it is it's own gift by itself, given by the same Spirit. Let's not get the two confused.

Thanks, Onelight. That makes a great deal of sense, and it's a rational statement.

Lekh

[Franky67]

What is the teaching of most of you here regarding the disciples that were sent out by Jesus ?

Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given?

Were they "set apart" different from all other believers?

Well, I think the discussion about whether or not the 12 and 70 had unique powers has about run it's gamut.

The conclusion, as I see it, is that most of you here have been taught, to one extent or another, that the things Jesus, and the 12 and 70 did were special and unique giftings for that day and time.

And that these gifts are no longer needed today. Which nicely explains why there isn't much of that happening.

What Jesus taught to those around Him, and anyone else who have ears to hear, is that He came to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. He demonstrated what that Kingdom consisted of. He told them to Heal, deliver, restore, and gave them the authority to do these things.

He ALSO told to tell the people they ministered to, that "The Kingdom of Heaven had come near them.

So the Kingdom of Heaven is all the things Jesus demonstrated.

Paul said in 1 Cor. 4:20 the the Kingdom of God consists, not of words, but of power.

Ephesians teaches us that all believers are endowed with that same power, Colossians 2:9,10 say that "For in Him, all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him, you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority."

That word complete as used in the Greek language means, perfect supply, completely furnished. IOW, all we need to accomplish all that God tells us to do.

And this applies to all of us , the 12, and 70 included.

When we don't know who we are, and what we possess, in Christ, then we are weak, and unable to do the tasks that God the Holy Spirit gives us to do.

We are ambassadors for Christ.

One of the brothers just said that his church prayed for a woman, that God would heal her. Eventhough the prayer was worded wrong, she was healed, because God is a "heart Checker" and so she received her healing.

It was worded wrong, because not one single time did Jesus tell the ones He sent out to pray and ask God to heal, Jesus told them to heal the sick, He said for them to do it, because He gave them the authority to heal.

Frustrated because it would take a book to explain , but guess what ? there is one that does just that, the bible.

We don't seek for a sign, we seek the Kingdom of Heaven, His will on earth as it is in Heaven.

Jesus is the messenger of the covenant, in Him ALL the promises of God are Yes and Amen.

[OneLight]

Your understanding of Colossians 2:9-10 is wrong. You can not take one verse and claim that we all have the same authority in Christ as He gave a few.

I have more then once pointed you to 1 Corinthians 12:12-30 where it clearly states:

Unity and Diversity in One Body

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

The gifts today are still active, but are given by the Holy Spirit according to His will. The difference between when Jesus gave authority and when the Holy Spirit gives gifts is that the authority Jesus gave was in full measure, but the Holy Spirit gives a gift to you and a gift to me and is not the full authority Jesus gave.

Today, there are denominations that do not believe that the Holy Spirit still gives gifts. From what I have been told, they believe that 1 Corinthians 13:10 - But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. - means that when we received the cannon (that which is perfect) that which is in part (gifts) were done away with. I see this verse as the fulfillment of righteousness we will have when we are with Him, for our righteousness is now in part, but when we are with Him (through death) that which is in part (the righteousness we have here in this life) will be done away with and we will become complete in Him.

You are correct, it takes the whole word of God to understand how He is working today, not just a doctrine based on one verse and the desire to have the best gift. If what you say was true, tell me how many you have raised from the dead, how many hospitals you have cleared out through healings. It just is not there, Brother.

I hope you also see this.

God Bless,

Alan

[Guest yod]

Miracles are still happening every day all over the planet

I don't know why anyone would doubt it unless they aren't in the stream of what He is doing today.

[lekh l'kha]

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification, for you to abstain from fornication, each one of you to know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor (not in the passion of lust, even as the nations who do not know God), not to go beyond and defraud his brother in this matter (because the Lord is the avenger concerning all these, as we also have forewarned you and testified). For God has not called us to uncleanness, but in sanctification.

Therefore he who despises does not despise man, but God, who also has given us His Holy Spirit. But regarding brotherly love, you do not need that I write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another." (1Th 4:3-9)

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant...

... But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all. But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues. But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires...

... Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret? But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way...

... Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have prophecies, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so as to move mountains, and do not have charity, I am nothing..."

Quote:

Messenger / Angel of the Church (Heb. Sheliach Tzibbur; Gr.Angeloi tes Ekklesias)

Overseer (Heb. Chazan; Gr. Episkopos)

Apostle

[KC02]

Well it's nice to see someone with a very similar Christian worldview as I have. I think your comments about the Kingdom are excellent. Many scholars teach that the advent of God's Kingdom is the central message of the NT. God's Kingdom is characterized by God's will and power in the earth.

It's amazing how wound-up the Religious Order can get when you mention "miracles" or "power." Get over it. My God is a miracle worker and I am His ambassador.

And I will take each and every miracle the rest of you do not want or need!

What is the teaching of most of you here regarding the disciples that were sent out by Jesus ?

Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given?

Were they "set apart" different from all other believers?

Well, I think the discussion about whether or not the 12 and 70 had unique powers has about run it's gamut.

The conclusion, as I see it, is that most of you here have been taught, to one extent or another, that the things Jesus, and the 12 and 70 did were special and unique giftings for that day and time.

And that these gifts are no longer needed today. Which nicely explains why there isn't much of that happening.

What Jesus taught to those around Him, and anyone else who have ears to hear, is that He came to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. He demonstrated what that Kingdom consisted of. He told them to Heal, deliver, restore, and gave them the authority to do these things.

He ALSO told to tell the people they ministered to, that "The Kingdom of Heaven had come near them.

So the Kingdom of Heaven is all the things Jesus demonstrated.

Paul said in 1 Cor. 4:20 the the Kingdom of God consists, not of words, but of power.

Ephesians teaches us that all believers are endowed with that same power, Colossians 2:9,10 say that "For in Him, all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him, you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority."

That word complete as used in the Greek language means, perfect supply, completely furnished. IOW, all we need to accomplish all that God tells us to do.

And this applies to all of us , the 12, and 70 included.

When we don't know who we are, and what we possess, in Christ, then we are weak, and unable to do the tasks that God the Holy Spirit gives us to do.

We are ambassadors for Christ.

One of the brothers just said that his church prayed for a woman, that God would heal her. Eventhough the prayer was worded wrong, she was healed, because God is a "heart Checker" and so she received her healing.

It was worded wrong, because not one single time did Jesus tell the ones He sent out to pray and ask God to heal, Jesus told them to heal the sick, He said for them to do it, because He gave them the authority to heal.

Frustrated because it would take a book to explain , but guess what ? there is one that does just that, the bible.

We don't seek for a sign, we seek the Kingdom of Heaven, His will on earth as it is in Heaven.

Jesus is the messenger of the covenant, in Him ALL the promises of God are Yes and Amen.

[KC02]

What if God healed a man born without eyes? Is that a healing or a miracle? See, healings and miracles are very closely related.

What IS a miracle? It is the feeding of the 2000 and 5000 with a few loafs of bread and a couple of fish; it is walking on water; it is cursing a tree to die; it is raising the dead; it is when the Holy Spirit transports a person from one area to another; it is the parting of the sea; it is a column of fire at night and of dirt during the day; it is the plagues that came upon Egypt; it is a burning bush that does not consume it by fire ... they are all through scripture. Healing is not part of the gift of miracles, it is it's own gift by itself, given by the same Spirit. Let's not get the two confused.

Thanks, Onelight. That makes a great deal of sense, and it's a rational statement.

Lekh

[KC02]

I'll add the churches of Christ to my list. I know the Wesleyans and Southern Baptists are anti-charismatic and do not generally believe in the operation of the gifts today.

I have always wanted to ask these people what they do when people ask for prayer! Shouldn't the preacher inform the seeker that God no longer preforms miracles and refuse to pray about healings and miracles? That sounds reasonable to me. Why waste yours and God's time?

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Your assumption that only apostles preformed miracles is wrong. You absolutely know the 70 preformed miracles of healing in Jesus' name. We have already covered this to death. Also the gift of miracles is attached to the church, not the apostles. You should include 1 Cor in your "Biblical record." I said not believing in miracles ignores a central teaching of Christ.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

Christians do not need miracles to believe. They need miracles because they get sick just like everyone else.

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

Well it certainly sounds like it was said in jest. If miracles aren't for you, that is fine. But I don't think one can be saved without a miracle of being born again.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

I don't know exactly where you are going with this. Does any of it prove that God has retired and will never preform another miracle? Or that Christ will never again be "moved with compassion" when a sick person calls on his name?

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

You quote Paul when it is convenient for you and ignore what he writes that doesn't fit within your beliefs (like the gift of miracles for believers). Believing in miracles doesn't make one more vulnerable to delusion than those who deny God's Word.

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

It is plain as day who Jesus was talking about ("He who believes on Me"). It doesn't matter who He was speaking to. This is not a fill in the blank verse. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The rules of grammar and logic still apply to verses you disagree with.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

How did the woman get healed without an apostle? You keep saying that God only used apostles to do miracles but accept that this woman was healed. How do you believe two different things at once?

I do not know what you believe. You ignore verses, rewrite verses, and recite verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insist that you believe the Bible and that those that believe in miracles are headed for a delusion all the while claiming that God can still do miracles.

Say what?

KC02 it looks like you have run into one of the OPTIONAL BELIEFS of one of the churches of Christ. I use the word OPTIONAL because churches of Christ can choose to believe in or disbelieve certain doctrinal beliefs. But are connected by a number of common doctrinal beliefs. However almost all of the churches of Christ believe that miricle works of the Holy Spirit died out with the apostles which actually denies the works of one part of the trinity they claim to believe in. The fact of the matter is that the manifested works of the Holy Spirit are for the unsaved to see and to glorify God and His Son. At least that is what I believe.

There really isn't any point in trying to speak good biblical logic to anyone who belongs to a church of Christ because they are shall we say brain washed. They They believe that they are the only AUTHORIZED CHURCH left here on earth by Christ who can is authorized to interpret the word of God rightly and that if you do not belong to their church you are going to hell.

Being brain washed as they are about certain things has put a very thick wall between them and biblical truth. Having these biblical discussions about the bible with lekh and destroysothers who believe in the denial of tbelievinghe writtenpower of God.

Smiraclecripture speaks this very belief and the members of the churches of Christ fit the biblical distribution to the T. 2 TIMOTHY 3:5-7 " Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which CREEP into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So my brother why try to get Lehk to see the truth when he has actually been self blinded to the truth. Only complete deliverance IE a miracle from the Holy Spirit can take away the bondage he has been bound with.

No insult intended here. Just the facts.

[KC02]

Today, there are denominations that do not believe that the Holy Spirit still gives gifts. From what I have been told, they believe that 1 Corinthians 13:10 - But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. - means that when we received the cannon (that which is perfect) that which is in part (gifts) were done away with. I see this verse as the fulfillment of righteousness we will have when we are with Him, for our righteousness is now in part, but when we are with Him (through death) that which is in part (the righteousness we have here in this life) will be done away with and we will become complete in Him.

You are correct, it takes the whole word of God to understand how He is working today, not just a doctrine based on one verse and the desire to have the best gift. If what you say was true, tell me how many you have raised from the dead, how many hospitals you have cleared out through healings. It just is not there, Brother.

I hope you also see this.

God Bless,

Alan

Hi Alan. Yes that is a verse cessationists have used to proof text their view that the gifts have ceased. I think we are beyond that now. I think both sides now agree that the verse has nothing to do with a cannon. The verse has nothing to do with miracles, a cannon, or the gifts of the Spirit. Your interpretation sounds reasonable; I have no idea what Paul meant there.

I do like your, "the proof is in the pudding" attitude. I have a little bit of that myself. But Jesus never cleaned out a hospital (like Bethesda, Jn 5). I think the reason for the lack of miracles in our day can be found in this thread. How many even believe in miracles today? And how can we convince others to believe for their miracle when we don't believe ourselves?

[OneLight]

Today, there are denominations that do not believe that the Holy Spirit still gives gifts. From what I have been told, they believe that 1 Corinthians 13:10 - But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. - means that when we received the cannon (that which is perfect) that which is in part (gifts) were done away with. I see this verse as the fulfillment of righteousness we will have when we are with Him, for our righteousness is now in part, but when we are with Him (through death) that which is in part (the righteousness we have here in this life) will be done away with and we will become complete in Him.

You are correct, it takes the whole word of God to understand how He is working today, not just a doctrine based on one verse and the desire to have the best gift. If what you say was true, tell me how many you have raised from the dead, how many hospitals you have cleared out through healings. It just is not there, Brother.

I hope you also see this.

God Bless,

Alan

Hi Alan. Yes that is a verse cessationists have used to proof text their view that the gifts have ceased. I think we are beyond that now. I think both sides now agree that the verse has nothing to do with a cannon. The verse has nothing to do with miracles, a cannon, or the gifts of the Spirit. Your interpretation sounds reasonable; I have no idea what Paul meant there.

I do like your, "the proof is in the pudding" attitude. I have a little bit of that myself. But Jesus never cleaned out a hospital (like Bethesda, Jn 5). I think the reason for the lack of miracles in our day can be found in this thread. How many even believe in miracles today? And how can we convince others to believe for their miracle when we don't believe ourselves?

Blessings KCO2,

They are still around today and do use the verse to back their theories. I have had this said to me recently. As Yod said, miracles are done, we just don't hear of them, especially in the US, unless you subscribe to certain web sites or new emails.

There were no hospitals in His time, only places where people would gather, like the Pool of Bethesda, as you mention. People would bring their sick to Him and He would heal them. The same with the Apostles. My question was a bit sarcastic, I admit, but it is a question to all those who look at the gifts as having the "power" behind them and not at the will of the Holy Spirit. I was trying to show that we are not the ones in control, He is.

I also believe that it is the unbelief of His people that hinder His Spirit in more then one way.