Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[Franky67]

2 Cor 11:12-15

But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

It is not the lack of faith as you say, but rather a different moving of the Spirit. The Apostles had all the gifts, where those who are baptized in the Spirit are given according to His will. The Spirit will continue to work in the lives of believers, this I agree, but we do not have the same calling as the Apostles did. I will not believe that there are true Apostles nor Prophets unless they have the signs, wonders and mighty deeds that followed the first Apostles and Prophets. Since God has not changed, neither has the calling and works.

In the Scripture above, Paul was speaking of the Jews who would try to come and impose the law on these new believers. Fact is all who were witnessed to about the Kingdom of Heaven, did not fully comprehend the message, and went off mixing the law with New Testament grace.

It's not something preachers today bring as a subject of their sermon very often, but there was a true rift between Paul and the church at Jerusalem over the subject of new converts having to keep parts of the law, for instance circumcision. These were not "apostles, but they were from the church in Jerusalem, and they thought they needed to straighten out the new converts.

Acts 15 starting at verse 23 is the letter Peter wrote them in Antioch Syria, and Cilicia, to attempt at damage control.

[lekh l'kha]

So it is your belief that God will heal the sick and raise them up after they are dead?

Isn't that like asking God for rent money and God saying, "Sure! But only after you are dead." We will not need healing when we die. We need it now.

It isn't our job to make excuses for God.

There must have been just as much sickness and disease and dying going on in the days of the apostles as there is today. I wonder how many of the terminally ill whom the apostles came across, the apostles shared the gospel with, praying for their salvation, anointing their heads?

I wonder how many died, and how many were miraculously healed after the apostles prayed for them? I guess no terminally ill person who came in contact with the apostles throughout the apostolic decades died of their illness?

THE BIBLICAL RECORD

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psa 119:105).

THE BIBLICAL RECORD. That's what I believe. Men can claim what they want, from being given "the keys of Peter" to being the first of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 (I've seen that one advertising on the net somewhere!).

But I believe the Bible.

I don't expect others to agree with me, but I cared enough to know the truth about these things to go searching all the the records of and references to signs, wonders and miracles and visions, dreams etc from Acts through to Jude. It wasn't a small project, but I'm very glad I undertook it.

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psa 119:105).

[Franky67]

Because the mission of the 12 and the 70 was not the same as the Great Commission. As I have stated before, God did not promise to empower every member of the church with the same signs and wonders as was given the apostles.

Your reasoning is, "if they could do it, then I should be able to as well," but that is not something promised in the Bible, and it is improper for you to assert something that the Bible has not said. The promises Jesus made to the disciples were for them. You cannot take what was promised to them and universalize it to apply to the entire church. That is not good theology, and it has the potential to produce a lot of false teaching.

By shiloh

Shiloh,

This is denomination talking here, not scripture. The mission is the same great commission, the 12 and 70 could not go " into all the world ", it would take those who followed them , and on , and on, to accomplish this great commission, all believers are fully equipped.

We haven't been given two sets of instructions on reaching the world for Christ, we have been given ONE SET OF INSTRUCTIONS, and one instructor, Jesus.

I have not "reasoned" my belief, I have read it in plain words, red words by the way, in the New Testament, for instance, Mark 16

15. "And He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved, and he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs shall accompany those who have believed; in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink any deadly poison; it will not injure them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."

Jesus gave them these instructions before He ascended to the Father.

[Guest shiloh357]

This is denomination talking here, not scripture.

I am not making a denomiational argument at all.

The mission is the same great commission, the 12 and 70 could not go " into all the world ", it would take those who followed them , and on , and on, to accomplish this great commission, all believers are fully equipped.

No, their mission was not the same as the great commision. The 12 and 70 were not commanded to make other disciples. They were also limited to house of Israel.

We haven't been given two sets of instructions on reaching the world for Christ, we have been given ONE SET OF INSTRUCTIONS, and one instructor, Jesus.

You are trying to refute an argument I have not raised.

I have not "reasoned" my belief, I have read it in plain words, red words by the way, in the New Testament, for instance, Mark 16

15. "And He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved, and he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs shall accompany those who have believed; in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink any deadly poison; it will not injure them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."

Jesus gave them these instructions before He ascended to the Father.

I have no problem with that, but it does not really address the issue. It does not mean that the apostles did not have a unique calling and ministry and a unique supernatural environment that accompanied their unique ministry.

[Franky67]

This is denomination talking here, not scripture.

I am not making a denomiational argument at all.

The mission is the same great commission, the 12 and 70 could not go " into all the world ", it would take those who followed them , and on , and on, to accomplish this great commission, all believers are fully equipped.

No, their mission was not the same as the great commision. The 12 and 70 were not commanded to make other disciples. They were also limited to house of Israel.

We haven't been given two sets of instructions on reaching the world for Christ, we have been given ONE SET OF INSTRUCTIONS, and one instructor, Jesus.

You are trying to refute an argument I have not raised.

I have not "reasoned" my belief, I have read it in plain words, red words by the way, in the New Testament, for instance, Mark 16

15. "And He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved, and he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs shall accompany those who have believed; in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink any deadly poison; it will not injure them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."

Jesus gave them these instructions before He ascended to the Father.

I have no problem with that, but it does not really address the issue. It does not mean that the apostles did not have a unique calling and ministry and a unique supernatural environment that accompanied their unique ministry.

And that supernatural environment is the Kingdom of Heaven, and it has never changed , your theology has it changing depending on who brings it to hand.

Jesus said pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in Heaven." And Jesus demonstrated what the earth is like when the Kingdom is at hand. He said "Tell John, the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."

This is the environment of the Kingdom of Heaven, always the same, regardless of who ushers it in.

[OneLight]

I have to ask Franky, do you believe that the office of Apostles are the same today as they were in the NT Apostles?

[KC02]

Not everyone was healed in Jesus' day. Certainly not in the days of the apostles, either.

And for the record, I do not claim to be anything except a believer. To me, God has no choice but to preform miracles [today] because He is bound by his Word and promises.

(Ps 34:19 [KJV])

Many [are] the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

If the whole world is on their death bed, I am still going to believe God's promises. I believe God can do anything but fail.

Everyone else, of course, can believe anything they like.

So it is your belief that God will heal the sick and raise them up after they are dead?

Isn't that like asking God for rent money and God saying, "Sure! But only after you are dead." We will not need healing when we die. We need it now.

It isn't our job to make excuses for God.

There must have been just as much sickness and disease and dying going on in the days of the apostles as there is today. I wonder how many of the terminally ill whom the apostles came across, the apostles shared the gospel with, praying for their salvation, anointing their heads?

I wonder how many died, and how many were miraculously healed after the apostles prayed for them? I guess no terminally ill person who came in contact with the apostles throughout the apostolic decades died of their illness?

THE BIBLICAL RECORD

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psa 119:105).

THE BIBLICAL RECORD. That's what I believe. Men can claim what they want, from being given "the keys of Peter" to being the first of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 (I've seen that one advertising on the net somewhere!).

But I believe the Bible.

I don't expect others to agree with me, but I cared enough to know the truth about these things to go searching all the the records of and references to signs, wonders and miracles and visions, dreams etc from Acts through to Jude. It wasn't a small project, but I'm very glad I undertook it.

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psa 119:105).

[KC02]

I can't argue with that OneLight. I agree with your assessment. I have nothing either theologically or emotionally invested in that particular Verse. I think the following Verse is much more plain.

(Mark 16:17-18 [KJV])

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

You good folks can't explain away every verse that promises power to the believer. Or you have certainly got your work cut out for you.

[mjrhealth]

Why would God give His power to all. Just read the last few pages bickering and hate. No He will not give His power to everyone. He has a few who where willing to lay down all for what they will receive. God is like a business man who wishes to give His sons His kingdom to rule and rein overwith Christ, but that authority comes at a high price that few are willing to pay, and it takes more grace than I could ever imagine to see that throught. Can you imagine what the world would be like if you lot had His power , id hate to see the consequences. If you are fill of pride, then that needs to go, if you have any unforgiveness, that needs to go, if you hate anyone , then the love of God is not in you and that needs to go. Faith without works is dead, but the works comes after the faith. If God gave you the faith to say to that mountain, Move, and you believed it to be true, then the mountain will move and the faith has produced a work. But it is not your work. Jesus never healed anyone His father did the work through Him, just as we are supposed to let Him do His work though us. Jesus did nothing without first asking God what to do. He healed those who He needed to heal. And prison, that is not a jail in the physical sense, but a spiritual one that religion created and many are in now. But they will all be set free, soon enough. Our eyes will be opened and the veil removed and the deception brought to light, then all will see.

In His Love

[KC02]

Good day mjrhealth. We are having a very friendly debate. There is no hate in here, although some might like to gore my head

I think it is ultimately a great format to learn and see new things in the Bible. It's all good.

Why would God give His power to all. Just read the last few pages bickering and hate. No He will not give His power to everyone. He has a few who where willing to lay down all for what they will receive. God is like a business man who wishes to give His sons His kingdom to rule and rein overwith Christ, but that authority comes at a high price that few are willing to pay, and it takes more grace than I could ever imagine to see that throught. Can you imagine what the world would be like if you lot had His power , id hate to see the consequences. If you are fill of pride, then that needs to go, if you have any unforgiveness, that needs to go, if you hate anyone , then the love of God is not in you and that needs to go. Faith without works is dead, but the works comes after the faith. If God gave you the faith to say to that mountain, Move, and you believed it to be true, then the mountain will move and the faith has produced a work. But it is not your work. Jesus never healed anyone His father did the work through Him, just as we are supposed to let Him do His work though us. Jesus did nothing without first asking God what to do. He healed those who He needed to heal. And prison, that is not a jail in the physical sense, but a spiritual one that religion created and many are in now. But they will all be set free, soon enough. Our eyes will be opened and the veil removed and the deception brought to light, then all will see.

In His Love