Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[lekh l'kha]

Point that I am trying to make is that we, today are inheritors of everything that they were, and IF God sees fit to anoint any one of us , He has given us the wherewithall to accomplish His will.

What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith.

One today, might say, "How can we lay hands on the sick, and see them recover, that was only for the apostles."

And that mindset HAS destroyed faith.

I agree. A central teaching of Christ was to "have faith in God" because all things are possible. How many times did Jesus give this exhortation? What I am reading here is, "Don't believe in miracles since the apostles are no longer with us."

It's not that such a teaching only destroys faith, but it tosses out the central teaching of the New Covenant. It also makes God as impotent as Buddha, Mohammad, Zeus and Peter Pan.

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

"He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son." (1Jn 5:10).

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" (Mat 7:22-23)

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2Th 2:7-12).

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

And the Biblical record shows that nine of the ten miracles from Acys to Jude were performed by the apostles and Barnabus (when Barnabus was in the company of Paul), and one was performed by Stephen before he was martyred.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

[KC02]

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Your assumption that only apostles preformed miracles is wrong. You absolutely know the 70 preformed miracles of healing in Jesus' name. We have already covered this to death. Also the gift of miracles is attached to the church, not the apostles. You should include 1 Cor in your "Biblical record." I said not believing in miracles ignores a central teaching of Christ.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

Christians do not need miracles to believe. They need miracles because they get sick just like everyone else.

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

Well it certainly sounds like it was said in jest. If miracles aren't for you, that is fine. But I don't think one can be saved without a miracle of being born again.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

I don't know exactly where you are going with this. Does any of it prove that God has retired and will never preform another miracle? Or that Christ will never again be "moved with compassion" when a sick person calls on his name?

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

You quote Paul when it is convenient for you and ignore what he writes that doesn't fit within your beliefs (like the gift of miracles for believers). Believing in miracles doesn't make one more vulnerable to delusion than those who deny God's Word.

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

It is plain as day who Jesus was talking about ("He who believes on Me"). It doesn't matter who He was speaking to. This is not a fill in the blank verse. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The rules of grammar and logic still apply to verses you disagree with.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

How did the woman get healed without an apostle? You keep saying that God only used apostles to do miracles but accept that this woman was healed. How do you believe two different things at once?

I do not know what you believe. You ignore verses, rewrite verses, and recite verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insist that you believe the Bible and that those that believe in miracles are headed for a delusion all the while claiming that God can still do miracles.

Say what?

[Guest yod]

Yeshua said it is an evil and adulterous people that seek after signs.....and yet Yeshua did many signs. The point is seeking the sign instead of the Son is a selfish pursuit. The mind of Christ is to prefer others over oneself.

When you find people that serve others, you have found Yeshua. When you find people seeking a sign, there you find hedonism looking for an intoxicant.

[lekh l'kha]

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Your assumption that only apostles preformed miracles is wrong. You absolutely know the 70 preformed miracles of healing in Jesus' name. We have already covered this to death. Also the gift of miracles is attached to the church, not the apostles. You should include 1 Cor in your "Biblical record." I said not believing in miracles ignores a central teaching of Christ.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

Christians do not need miracles to believe. They need miracles because they get sick just like everyone else.

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

Well it certainly sounds like it was said in jest. If miracles aren't for you, that is fine. But I don't think one can be saved without a miracle of being born again.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

I don't know exactly where you are going with this. Does any of it prove that God has retired and will never preform another miracle? Or that Christ will never again be "moved with compassion" when a sick person calls on his name?

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

You quote Paul when it is convenient for you and ignore what he writes that doesn't fit within your beliefs (like the gift of miracles for believers). Believing in miracles doesn't make one more vulnerable to delusion than those who deny God's Word.

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

It is plain as day who Jesus was talking about ("He who believes on Me"). It doesn't matter who He was speaking to. This is not a fill in the blank verse. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The rules of grammar and logic still apply to verses you disagree with.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

How did the woman get healed without an apostle? You keep saying that God only used apostles to do miracles but accept that this woman was healed. How do you believe two different things at once?

I do not know what you believe. You ignore verses, rewrite verses, and recite verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insist that you believe the Bible and that those that believe in miracles are headed for a delusion all the while claiming that God can still do miracles.

Say what?

You were the one who said that believing that the miracles, signs and wonders performed by the apostles were gifts given to them only for a special purpose and reason, is "faith-destroying" - it wasn't ne who said it. I said that Our faith should be in the Word of God/death and resurrection of Jesus only, and that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit that these things are so, and do not need miracles so that our faith won't be destroyed, as you claimed. You did say that. Or did you mean something else and not get the words out quite right to describe quite what you meant? I don't know. You'll have to explain what you meant.

About the 70 and my references to the Biblical record from the book of Acts to the book of Jude:

The 70 were sent out before the death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord - the records of signs, wonders and miracles from the book of Acts through to the book of Jude came after that. I stated repeatedly that the record is taken from the book of Acts to the book of Jude. So what's your point?

I've mentioned all the records of and references to signs, wonders and miracles from the book of Acts through to the book of Jude, and listed each and every verse. But you make many blanket statements (about "the Biblical recorded in 1 Corinthians" etc), which prove nothing.

I never said Jesus doesn't work miracles - the people who prayed for the woman I'm talking about prayed to God and asked Him in the name of Jesus for her healing, and Jesus healed her. Does that make miracle workers of the people who prayed for her? Well, they don't seem to think so!

Part of the Biblical record in 1Corinthians which you made a blanket statement about says,

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret? But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have prophecies, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so as to move mountains, and do not have charity, I am nothing. And though I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and though I deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, I am profited nothing. Charity has patience, is kind; charity is not envious, is not vain, is not puffed up; does not behave indecently, does not seek her own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil. Charity does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth, quietly covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Charity never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be abolished; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be abolished. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease. When I was an infant, I spoke as an infant, I thought as an infant, I reasoned as an infant. But when I became a man, I did away with the things of an infant. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known. And now faith, hope, charity, these three remain; but the greatest of these is charity." (1Co 12: 29 - 13:1-13)

I can't see what your point is, or why you are making such a fuss just because from Acts to Jude, nine of the ten recorded miracles were performed by the apostles and Barnabus when he was in the company of Paul, and one was performed by Stephen before he was martyred. I never wrote the New Testament - the apostles and Luke wrote it; and I never called miracles, signs and wonders "the signs of an apostle" - Paul and the author of the letter to the Hebrews did. Go take the issue up with them, if it makes you so angry.

Lekh

[KC02]

Good point. Jesus was often said to be "moved with compassion" before healing someone. Jesus wasn't dong miracles just to be doing them. He loved people and wanted to see them well. As long as He still has compassion for humankind, I believe there will be miracles and healings.

Yeshua said it is an evil and adulterous people that seek after signs.....and yet Yeshua did many signs. The point is seeking the sign instead of the Son is a selfish pursuit. The mind of Christ is to prefer others over oneself.

When you find people that serve others, you have found Yeshua. When you find people seeking a sign, there you find hedonism looking for an intoxicant.

[KC02]

First, I want to apologize because I did, in fact, get a little stressed in my last post. You seem to disavow certain Verses that doesn't fit your point of view. Of course, I have read a lot of this stuff before, from people like John MacArthur and so on.

At some point I guess we just have to agree to disagree because we will never see eye-to-eye in this lifetime.

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Your assumption that only apostles preformed miracles is wrong. You absolutely know the 70 preformed miracles of healing in Jesus' name. We have already covered this to death. Also the gift of miracles is attached to the church, not the apostles. You should include 1 Cor in your "Biblical record." I said not believing in miracles ignores a central teaching of Christ.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

Christians do not need miracles to believe. They need miracles because they get sick just like everyone else.

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

Well it certainly sounds like it was said in jest. If miracles aren't for you, that is fine. But I don't think one can be saved without a miracle of being born again.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

I don't know exactly where you are going with this. Does any of it prove that God has retired and will never preform another miracle? Or that Christ will never again be "moved with compassion" when a sick person calls on his name?

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

You quote Paul when it is convenient for you and ignore what he writes that doesn't fit within your beliefs (like the gift of miracles for believers). Believing in miracles doesn't make one more vulnerable to delusion than those who deny God's Word.

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

It is plain as day who Jesus was talking about ("He who believes on Me"). It doesn't matter who He was speaking to. This is not a fill in the blank verse. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The rules of grammar and logic still apply to verses you disagree with.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

How did the woman get healed without an apostle? You keep saying that God only used apostles to do miracles but accept that this woman was healed. How do you believe two different things at once?

I do not know what you believe. You ignore verses, rewrite verses, and recite verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insist that you believe the Bible and that those that believe in miracles are headed for a delusion all the while claiming that God can still do miracles.

Say what?

You were the one who said that believing that the miracles, signs and wonders performed by the apostles were gifts given to them only for a special purpose and reason, is "faith-destroying" - it wasn't ne who said it. I said that Our faith should be in the Word of God/death and resurrection of Jesus only, and that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit that these things are so, and do not need miracles so that our faith won't be destroyed, as you claimed. You did say that. Or did you mean something else and not get the words out quite right to describe quite what you meant? I don't know. You'll have to explain what you meant.

About the 70 and my references to the Biblical record from the book of Acts to the book of Jude:

The 70 were sent out before the death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord - the records of signs, wonders and miracles from the book of Acts through to the book of Jude came after that. I stated repeatedly that the record is taken from the book of Acts to the book of Jude. So what's your point?

I've mentioned all the records of and references to signs, wonders and miracles from the book of Acts through to the book of Jude, and listed each and every verse. But you make many blanket statements (about "the Biblical recorded in 1 Corinthians" etc), which prove nothing.

I never said Jesus doesn't work miracles - the people who prayed for the woman I'm talking about prayed to God and asked Him in the name of Jesus for her healing, and Jesus healed her. Does that make miracle workers of the people who prayed for her? Well, they don't seem to think so!

Part of the Biblical record in 1Corinthians which you made a blanket statement about says,

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret? But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have prophecies, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so as to move mountains, and do not have charity, I am nothing. And though I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and though I deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, I am profited nothing. Charity has patience, is kind; charity is not envious, is not vain, is not puffed up; does not behave indecently, does not seek her own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil. Charity does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth, quietly covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Charity never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be abolished; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be abolished. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease. When I was an infant, I spoke as an infant, I thought as an infant, I reasoned as an infant. But when I became a man, I did away with the things of an infant. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known. And now faith, hope, charity, these three remain; but the greatest of these is charity." (1Co 12: 29 - 13:1-13)

I can't see what your point is, or why you are making such a fuss just because from Acts to Jude, nine of the ten recorded miracles were performed by the apostles and Barnabus when he was in the company of Paul, and one was performed by Stephen before he was martyred. I never wrote the New Testament - the apostles and Luke wrote it; and I never called miracles, signs and wonders "the signs of an apostle" - Paul and the author of the letter to the Hebrews did. Go take the issue up with them, if it makes you so angry.

Lekh

[lekh l'kha]

First, I want to apologize because I did, in fact, get a little stressed in my last post. You seem to disavow certain Verses that doesn't fit your point of view. Of course, I have read a lot of this stuff before, from people like John MacArthur and so on.

At some point I guess we just have to agree to disagree because we will never see eye-to-eye in this lifetime.

I love peace, and I hate disobeying the Lord, whose only new commandment was that we love one another as deeply and genuinely as He loved us. And we both believe in a God of miracles, anyway. we only disagree on the details.

[Massorite]

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Your assumption that only apostles preformed miracles is wrong. You absolutely know the 70 preformed miracles of healing in Jesus' name. We have already covered this to death. Also the gift of miracles is attached to the church, not the apostles. You should include 1 Cor in your "Biblical record." I said not believing in miracles ignores a central teaching of Christ.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

Christians do not need miracles to believe. They need miracles because they get sick just like everyone else.

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

Well it certainly sounds like it was said in jest. If miracles aren't for you, that is fine. But I don't think one can be saved without a miracle of being born again.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

I don't know exactly where you are going with this. Does any of it prove that God has retired and will never preform another miracle? Or that Christ will never again be "moved with compassion" when a sick person calls on his name?

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

You quote Paul when it is convenient for you and ignore what he writes that doesn't fit within your beliefs (like the gift of miracles for believers). Believing in miracles doesn't make one more vulnerable to delusion than those who deny God's Word.

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

It is plain as day who Jesus was talking about ("He who believes on Me"). It doesn't matter who He was speaking to. This is not a fill in the blank verse. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The rules of grammar and logic still apply to verses you disagree with.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

How did the woman get healed without an apostle? You keep saying that God only used apostles to do miracles but accept that this woman was healed. How do you believe two different things at once?

I do not know what you believe. You ignore verses, rewrite verses, and recite verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insist that you believe the Bible and that those that believe in miracles are headed for a delusion all the while claiming that God can still do miracles.

Say what?

KC02 it looks like you have run into one of the OPTIONAL BELIEFS of one of the churches of Christ. I use the word OPTIONAL because churches of Christ can choose to believe in or disbelieve certain doctrinal beliefs. But are connected by a number of common doctrinal beliefs. However almost all of the churches of Christ believe that miricle works of the Holy Spirit died out with the apostles which actually denies the works of one part of the trinity they claim to believe in. The fact of the matter is that the manifested works of the Holy Spirit are for the unsaved to see and to glorify God and His Son. At least that is what I believe.

There really isn't any point in trying to speak good biblical logic to anyone who belongs to a church of Christ because they are shall we say brain washed. They They believe that they are the only AUTHORIZED CHURCH left here on earth by Christ who can is authorized to interpret the word of God rightly and that if you do not belong to their church you are going to hell.

Being brain washed as they are about certain things has put a very thick wall between them and biblical truth. Having these biblical discussions about the bible with lekh and destroysothers who believe in the denial of tbelievinghe writtenpower of God.

Smiraclecripture speaks this very belief and the members of the churches of Christ fit the biblical distribution to the T. 2 TIMOTHY 3:5-7 " Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which CREEP into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So my brother why try to get Lehk to see the truth when he has actually been self blinded to the truth. Only complete deliverance IE a miracle from the Holy Spirit can take away the bondage he has been bound with.

No insult intended here. Just the facts.

[lekh l'kha]

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Your assumption that only apostles preformed miracles is wrong. You absolutely know the 70 preformed miracles of healing in Jesus' name. We have already covered this to death. Also the gift of miracles is attached to the church, not the apostles. You should include 1 Cor in your "Biblical record." I said not believing in miracles ignores a central teaching of Christ.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

Christians do not need miracles to believe. They need miracles because they get sick just like everyone else.

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

Well it certainly sounds like it was said in jest. If miracles aren't for you, that is fine. But I don't think one can be saved without a miracle of being born again.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

I don't know exactly where you are going with this. Does any of it prove that God has retired and will never preform another miracle? Or that Christ will never again be "moved with compassion" when a sick person calls on his name?

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

You quote Paul when it is convenient for you and ignore what he writes that doesn't fit within your beliefs (like the gift of miracles for believers). Believing in miracles doesn't make one more vulnerable to delusion than those who deny God's Word.

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

It is plain as day who Jesus was talking about ("He who believes on Me"). It doesn't matter who He was speaking to. This is not a fill in the blank verse. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The rules of grammar and logic still apply to verses you disagree with.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

How did the woman get healed without an apostle? You keep saying that God only used apostles to do miracles but accept that this woman was healed. How do you believe two different things at once?

I do not know what you believe. You ignore verses, rewrite verses, and recite verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insist that you believe the Bible and that those that believe in miracles are headed for a delusion all the while claiming that God can still do miracles.

Say what?

KC02 it looks like you have run into one of the OPTIONAL BELIEFS of one of the churches of Christ. I use the word OPTIONAL because churches of Christ can choose to believe in or disbelieve certain doctrinal beliefs. But are connected by a number of common doctrinal beliefs. However almost all of the churches of Christ believe that miricle works of the Holy Spirit died out with the apostles which actually denies the works of one part of the trinity they claim to believe in. The fact of the matter is that the manifested works of the Holy Spirit are for the unsaved to see and to glorify God and His Son. At least that is what I believe.

There really isn't any point in trying to speak good biblical logic to anyone who belongs to a church of Christ because they are shall we say brain washed. They They believe that they are the only AUTHORIZED CHURCH left here on earth by Christ who can is authorized to interpret the word of God rightly and that if you do not belong to their church you are going to hell.

Being brain washed as they are about certain things has put a very thick wall between them and biblical truth. Having these biblical discussions about the bible with lekh and destroysothers who believe in the denial of tbelievinghe writtenpower of God.

Smiraclecripture speaks this very belief and the members of the churches of Christ fit the biblical distribution to the T. 2 TIMOTHY 3:5-7 " Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which CREEP into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So my brother why try to get Lehk to see the truth when he has actually been self blinded to the truth. Only complete deliverance IE a miracle from the Holy Spirit can take away the bondage he has been bound with.

No insult intended here. Just the facts.

Shocked, Massorite. Really shocked. I thought you had a lot more maturity than this.

How anyone can claim to love Jesus and be His disciple and make so many personal attacks, false assumptions and false accusations against another Christian in one post? It's just beyond belief.

I haven't made personal attacks against anyone in this thread, and I never do - I let a brother be a brother and have his differences of opinion regarding certain things, without even thinking the kind of evil about him that you publically and so enthusiastically accuse me of.

I recognise the fact that Christians differ, but they're still brothers. I didn't get mad even when brother KCO2 got mad at me. I don't speak about another brother or sister behind his/her back by pm's or anything like that, accusing them of all sorts of evil, because that in itself would be evil.

But it's starting to feel like things are being said about me behind my back in pm's over here, forgive me if I'm wrong.

I just cannot believe the things that came out of your mouth in your post above - if that's what you call being "filled with the Spirit" then no thanks, I'd rather not be filled with your spirit - I'd rather be filled with the Spirit of Christ.

Your false assumptions (and those of KCO2):

I've never been a member of the Church of Christ and all I know about them is that they teach that if you're baptized, you're saved (no matter what you believe), and I don't agree with that at all.

I've heard of John Mcarthur and I've heard that he's not pro-Charismatic, but I've never read any book or article by him or heard any of his sermons - except once many years ago on the radio, and the way he was speaking put me off, and that was the last time I ever listened to him.

I searched through the New Testament myself (prayerfully, askling God to give me understanding and wisdom) from Acts to Jude, checking each and every reference to and record of signs, wonders and miracles, and what came up was not quite the same thing as what brother KCO2 believes. Maybe he's right, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't agree with him on everything he says, although like brother KCO2, I certainly don't deny that God works miracles even today, mainly through prayer - but I've also heard accounts of unbelievers (former Muslims) seeing visions of Jesus in countries like Indonesia and Syria and being converted from Islam to faith in Jesus as a result. Such things I can believe, because miracles and signs were always for the sake of unbelievers, not for the entertainment of Christians - which it is today in many, many churches - a circus.

Am I evil and bound with bondage as you claim because I dare to disagree with your beliefs?

Sorry, but I'm not affiliated to any church as you insist I am, though I go to a semi-Pentecostal (they call themselves "original Pentecostal or "conservative Pentecostal") church. I prefer that to sitting in a church which teaches Covenantal Theology, even though I don't believe everythingthey believe. But that's actually none of your business, since you have personally attacked me publically the way you have.

I'm absolutely stunned and shocked beyond belief by your portrayal of the Spirit of Jesus Whom you claim to have been baptized in.

Lekh

[OneLight]

What IS a miracle? It is the feeding of the 2000 and 5000 with a few loafs of bread and a couple of fish; it is walking on water; it is cursing a tree to die; it is raising the dead; it is when the Holy Spirit transports a person from one area to another; it is the parting of the sea; it is a column of fire at night and of dirt during the day; it is the plagues that came upon Egypt; it is a burning bush that does not consume it by fire ... they are all through scripture. Healing is not part of the gift of miracles, it is it's own gift by itself, given by the same Spirit. Let's not get the two confused.