Shooting at Fort Hood

[Axxman]

While all other religions are false, they do not generally possess the same militancy nor do they have the same bloody history and agenda that Islam possesses.

So says the guy living in a "christian nation" built on the genocide of unchristian savages...lol.

Not all false religions are the invention of satan, but stem from man's rejection of or ignorance of the truth. Islam, however, is proactively anti-God, as it reserves the lion's share of its hatred for followers of YHVH and His Son Jesus.

Speaking of spin...lol. All false religions are the invention of Satan who brings man to reject the truth. You clearly know nothing of Islam...and have probably never had a religious discussion with a follower of Islam if you for one second believe they hate the followers of God and His Son Jesus. Thats is so friggin' ridiculous its laughable! All muslims are NOT terrorists and they DO NOT share the terrorists ideology or faith.

[Axxman]

So far, no one has called for the imprisonment, deportation or deaths of all Muslims, so you can lose the "hate" spin.

Sorry...I was under the impression you had actually read the whole thread...

[Guest shiloh357]

So far, no one has called for the imprisonment, deportation or deaths of all Muslims, so you can lose the "hate" spin.

Sorry...I was under the impression you had actually read the whole thread...

Yeah, I have read the entire thread and I don't see genuine hate. All I see is you assigning it to people just so you have something to blow smoke about

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Nov 8 2009, 09:48 AM)

While all other religions are false, they do not generally possess the same militancy nor do they have the same bloody history and agenda that Islam possesses.

So says the guy living in a "christian nation" built on the genocide of unchristian savages...lol.

Except the genocide was not carried out by true followers of Christ, acting on Christ's teachings. The devout Muslim will commit or at least morally support it based on the teachings of Allah's "prophet" Mohummed.

Speaking of spin...lol. All false religions are the invention of Satan who brings man to reject the truth.

But only Islam is based on the worship of a demon called "Allah."

You clearly know nothing of Islam...and have probably never had a religious discussion with a follower of Islam if you for one second believe they hate the followers of God and His Son Jesus.

As I stated before, Islamic countries punish conversion to Judaism or Christianity with imprisonment and death. That fact is well recorded. I don't have to sit down and talk to a devout Muslim to see what goes on in MODERATE Islamic countries and the way they persecute nonMuslims.

Thats is so friggin' ridiculous its laughable!

What is ridiculous is the lengths to which are willing to go to protect your intellectual suicide. The person who is ignorant about Islam is you.

All muslims are NOT terrorists and they DO NOT share the terrorists ideology or faith.

True, but Islam is a satanic, evil government/idealogy.

[ted]

Well, from what I can see, I guess it would be easier to kill all muslims so we don't have to worry, correct?

I mean, why bother shipping them off out of the country? They would certainly join the fight against us anyway, right? It doesn't matter what their background is, what they have done for the country (many of them), it doesn't matter who they are or what they claim to be. The underlying fact is that they are muslim, and therefore should be exterminated to reduce the potential threat against us.

If we're gonna play, let's play to win. Let's not pussy-foot around the subject any longer. The answer I am reading here is simple: kill all muslims so that we don't have to worry about them.

After we wiped out the very last one, all violence will end and the world will live in peace.

Of course, we'll have to do the same thing to the next country, religious group, race, or any other group that hits us after this. Soon, there will be nothing but pure white men who claim to be Christians living in the world and we all know they could never cause a problem.

Ahh, true utopia.

t.

Nonsense. That is not what anyone has suggested or even implied and I am surprised that you make that kind of characterization of what others are saying. No one has said that anyone deserves to die for being a Muslim. Your remarks are unfair and unreasonable.

I edited my post while you made this response, not knowing that you posted. Sorry if it caused any confusion

Yes, it is nonsense, but you are incorrect if you don't think some people here feel this way but are perhaps too shy to come out and say it. The message is clear in some of these threads: the only way to truly eliminate the threat is to either jail all muslims, or to send them out of the country.

Yes, my post is comprised of asinine assumptions and ridiculous solutions to some of our problems. I don't believe in that way for a second, we know each other well enough to know this.

In a way, though, why should we not take the next step? I mean, if people are going to talk tough, then let's get tough and have some of these posters put their money where their mouths are.

I simply made my post as stupid as possible so that people can take a moment to think about what they are writing, and to calm down a little. People get all roid-raged up and post things which don't make sense, and I'm simply drawing attention to the fact that if we are not careful, it's a very small step from "doing what is right" to "falling into the hole of no return".

Thoughts and actions can whip up faster than a Texas twister sometimes, and I'm simply drawing attention to some of the more idiotic posts I've seen here. Maybe it would be better if I just put down my "Member" keyboard and used my "Mod" keyboard and simply flushed a lot of this hateful garbage into the junk bin and warned people not to post on the subject again.

I dunno, I just feel people are applying the wrong conclusions to this matter in Tx and coming to the false assumptions that all muslims are responsible for this on crazy dude's actions. They are not.

If the shooter had been a devout Baptist preacher who snapped under the same circumstances (depressed about an upcoming deployment to a war he didn't believe in, got picked on a lot, etc), would the muslim world be justified in condemning all of Christianity just as some people here are doing to the muslim world right now?

Think about that last one hard, my friend (and friends).

t.

[Axxman]

There are a few problems with this debate:

On the one hand we have: How should Christians relate to Muslims?

On the other hand we have: How should the government deal with Islamic terrorism?

I believe we are jumbling these up.

Totally agree! I think everyone knows how Christians should relate to Muslims, but the struggle is an internal spiritual one. In fact, many of the comments on this topic (not just in this thread) should make some of the posters slow down and wonder if their Islamic counterparts ever feel the same frustrations that they are expressing in their posts. "Hmmm...I just profiled an entire class of people and called for their banishment and/or arrest and deportation...I wonder if that might cause them some anamosity towards Christians?"

How the gov't deals with "Islamic terrorism???" You do mean just Islamic terrorism right? Because the rest of your post just seemed to gripe about muslims in general. There are too many of them women in burqah's and Islam is a threat. The vast majority of muslims in this country live peaceably with the rest of us and those who follow Islam in this country don't commit violence at any level greater than anyone else. I just wanna make sure we are talking about how to deal with "Islamic Terrorism" and not just Islam...because alot of people struggle with the distinction.

When push comes to shove all religions and philosophies that deny Jesus are satanic, and that would include atheism, humanism, naturalism, Buddhism, etc.

And Hindus are are involved with persecuting and killing Christians over in India and maybe some other countries just like Muslims.

Again, I totally agree. Anytime you are dealing with a false religion you have to know that Satan will use it to destroy as many people as possible.

Politically, we should not allow anything that threatens our country - and Islam is a threat. Look at the stronghold they have in Minnesota, I believe it is? Or is it Michigan?

Where I live, there is a growing population of Muslims - I work at the community college, and I am seeing them! Every semester I am seeing more women in some variation of Islamic garb.

Is Islam a threat...or is it Islamic terrorists? What is this great threat in Michigan/Minnesota? Muslims are going to college? With normal people?!?! Islamic garb? Is that garb offensive to you? Some people are offended when women wear pants or spaghetti straps...now were gonna complain when women dress modestly??? Personally, I find the headcovering very appealing...but I've always liked scarves and such...

Do you not think I have to deal with the possibility that somewhere near here or even in my school there might be a future terrorist, or a terrorist in training, or a "sleeper"?

Do you not think I have to deal with the possibility that one of my neighbors might be a pedophile...that a gangbanger might hit me with a random bullet...that a random act of violence might capture me in its snare??? Well, let me share with you that I prayed with a gangbanger this week. I spoke with a pedophile 2 weeks ago who was devasted and suicidal after being caught molesting his step-daughter...I still was able to place my hand on his shoulder and console him (and later he was in my prayers.)

It is NOT what we might have to deal with...its HOW we deal with it.

Religiously, I have to show the love of Jesus to all I meet. I can't be afraid of the Muslims I interact with, nor treat them as "suspects". I pray for their salvation, and all that.

Amen!

But yet, I am aware that Islam has a political element to it as well as being a religion - a lot like the Catholic Church during the Medieval-Middle Ages period of history. So even though the majority are not and will not be terrorists, they are a part of the political aspects. What I mean is they want Islam to dominate their culture as much as we Christians want our society and culture to return to the Biblical basis we once had (or to be truly Christ-centered in a way it never was before).

Doesn't it seem a little ironic that with all the "We are a Christian Nation" hype floating around...that some people keep complaining about a "political element" in Islam. I have studied multiple religions at the College level and I can tell you that it is easy to pin a "political element" on all of them. Is Islam a little more political? Maybe...but its not really the focal point of the religion. I appreaciate that you pointed out that Islam wants their religious influence on culture in the same way that Christianity does. Its been a source of struggle. The question is, how are we gonna fight that struggle with Islam's false ideology? I think most Christians KNOW the right answer in their hearts.

[MorningGlory]

Is Islam a little more political? Maybe...but its not really the focal point of the religion. I appreaciate that you pointed out that Islam wants their religious influence on culture in the same way that Christianity does. Its been a source of struggle. The question is, how are we gonna fight that struggle with Islam's false ideology? I think most Christians KNOW the right answer in their hearts.

No, the focal point of islam is world domination and the proliferation of their satanic belief system. Sure, Christianity wants to spread the Word as well but...we don't kill people to make them believe nor attempt to take over governments. As for fighting islam's ideology....the Word of God is the only way to do that.

[MorningGlory]

While all other religions are false, they do not generally possess the same militancy nor do they have the same bloody history and agenda that Islam possesses.

So says the guy living in a "christian nation" built on the genocide of unchristian savages...lol.

Not all false religions are the invention of satan, but stem from man's rejection of or ignorance of the truth. Islam, however, is proactively anti-God, as it reserves the lion's share of its hatred for followers of YHVH and His Son Jesus.

Speaking of spin...lol. All false religions are the invention of Satan who brings man to reject the truth. You clearly know nothing of Islam...and have probably never had a religious discussion with a follower of Islam if you for one second believe they hate the followers of God and His Son Jesus. Thats is so friggin' ridiculous its laughable! All muslims are NOT terrorists and they DO NOT share the terrorists ideology or faith.

Muslims consider Christians and Jews (or believers in other faiths) as enemies. This is spelled out in the Qu'ran and there is no way to deny it. They believe all people should be given a chance to convert and, failing that, should be killed or placed in an underclass which pays tax to the islamic authority. In that respect islam is a geopolitical movement. Also undeniable since it's written in their 'holy book'. You claim to have studied islam....exactly what did you study? Obviously not the Qu'ran....why are you such a big supporter of islam anyway? What is there to say about islam that is positive?

[Rick-Parker]

My dear friend, what are our choices?

-Eliminate (contain) all Soldiers who are muslim until the War on Terror is officially declared complete?

-Contain all muslim citizens as we did the Japanese during WWII?

We are also engaged in N. Korea, shall we contain all Koreans until the matter is solved? How about Chinese Soldiers? We also are engaged in a War on Drugs and heavily battling illegal aliens on the Border with Mexico, do all Soldiers of Mexican descent have to be monitored and contained?

It's a line we all walk while in the Military. We fully expect those that take the oath of enlistment, or accept a commission, or accept a warrant appointment, to preform their duties honorably while we are in uniform. There is no real way to realistically contain an entire race or religion within the ranks as a matter of precaution. I wish there was a magic wand we could wave so that anyone who would pose a safety risk would be auto-caught before something like this happens, but there isn't.

In this case, there were hazy indicators leading up to it, and maybe someone could have done more. I liken this one more closely to an incident that happened over ten years ago at Ft Bragg than I do a terrorist attack.

In the Ft Bragg case, SGT William Kreutzer (sp?) killed a number of soldiers in the early morning during their PT session. He was a white man, btw. Under the same circumstances, should we have then contained all white men in the service until we figured out more?

Now don't get me wrong. I am angered by this tragedy that happened at Ft Hood. The building that it happened in was directly across the street from where my old unit processed on their way overseas just a few months ago. I was in that same building and know the layout, and the normal every day hustle that goes on in there. It's very personal to me this time, as was the incident that happened at Ft Bragg because I was there on post that morning too.

However, all indications thus far point to a lone gunman who had mental issues and attacked out of rage when he could no longer contain his emotions. It's sick, it's nasty, and it's tragic, but the one thing it's not turning out to be, is an act of designed terrorism, planned and organized by anyone but him. The addition of the "muslim" aspect, in my opinion so far, is secondary.

You all know me, and how passionate I am about containing muslim aggression in the world. I recently retired after just about 20 years and did what I could to do my part while I was in. If there was even a hint of classic terrorism to blame in this incident, I would call it out in a heartbeat.

Mass murders are mostly carried out by white men, in fact. Look at the Luby's Restaurant killings in the neighboring town of Killeen. There are incidents where white men are not involved though, such as the sniper killings around the Washington DC area some ten years or so ago, which involved a former military man and a teenager. If we were to follow the wisdom set forth in this thread, we should have contained all black men and teenagers after those killings, too.

There's just no way to cast a suspicious eye on all muslim Soldiers as a result of this incident for the most part. While there may be some who we should watch as a natural part of this war, all indications so far in this case point to mental illness mixed with some religious coloring of an individual. I want to emphasize my use of the word individual, btw.

It's not 9/11, the USS Cole, the Beirut Marine Barracks, or a car bombing- it's more like another mass murder along the lines of any typical Postal worker incident, or sexual driven murderer. It's an individual who happened to use his religious beliefs as a motivator in an act of self destruction which was a result of his personal frustrations, not a well thought out, planned event directed by a higher proponent. Yes, he planned it to a point in a hurry, but it's not the same thing as the "terrorism" we are fighting around the world.

Until I see evidence of some other indication, I believe he acted alone and fits the mold of a classic killer who acts out of frustration along the lines of what we see all too many times in America. There are indicators that he wanted to tie in his military service and religious beliefs into the matter, but it still doesn't fit the mold of what we understand a muslim terrorist to be, such as the ones we are fighting over seas.

As to his military requirements, he received his doctorate as a result of the Military paying for his school. Normally, when the Military pays for your school, you owe the Military a certain number of years of service as a trade off. There are incidents, which are handled on an individual case basis, where you can resign your Commission before the required number of years of service are completed. Usually, you would pay back the cost of the schooling, minus the number of years served, under a formula of payment.

However, those cases are usually not in favor of the individual Officer. In other words, it takes quite a bit for the Military to release someone or accept a resignation, especially during a war time environment.

There are rumors out now that report he wanted out of the service, but I haven't seen any kind of paper work indicating he officially pursued to retire his commission. Who knows, it may be that he did and the Military just hasn't released it yet. Regardless, his frustrations no matter what they were, cannot justify what he did. He is not the victim in this. That said, we cannot rake the military and cut out anyone who is frustrated, even if they are muslim.

Personally, I think there were strong indicators that should have raised some eyebrows and kept him from a deployment out of concern for the safety of others with this guy. A number of factors come into play, but you don't usually catch them all and have time to put it all together before something like this happens though. If we could, these things would be prevented every time.

I don't know. A bunch of pudding is going to fly with this case in the coming weeks. I just feel that we are not at the point where we should contain all Military members who are muslim based on this incident. It's just not indicative of an underlying wave of potential, coordinated violence which is imminent at the hands of Soldiers who are muslim. If anything, the facts support quite the opposite. Although there are some muslim Military members who are still in uniform and are against our war aggainst muslim aggression, the overwhelming majority of them are true American patriots, fighting along side of us under a flag they are willing to die for. They recognize what is on the horizon and have pledged alligiance to America, not the twisted ideals that form muslim-based terrorism.

What more can you want from the person in your foxhole?

If this incident had been more widespread, and we saw a coordinated attack on numerous posts and bases, all at the hands of Military members who were muslim, and it was revealed that it was a planned attack, I would say lock every muslim in America up until we cleared the debris and figured out what was going on for sure......which in my mind will take the rest of their lives......but still...

t.

How many of these examples you have give have screamed "god is great" as they killed? There is a big difference between murdering for political and/or psychological reasons and doing it in the name of some god, believing that you will immediately go to heaven.

[nebula]

How the gov't deals with "Islamic terrorism???" You do mean just Islamic terrorism right? Because the rest of your post just seemed to gripe about muslims in general.

Axx - what do you think about the Muslim doctors who engaged in a deliberate cooperated attack in England?

On the one hand I can appreciate what you are saying, but your posts seem to indicate denial that there are Muslims who are plotting attacks against us, waiting for the right timing or whatever.

Until you acknowledge that there is a genuine threat for us to be concerned about, and propose a solution to the very real threat (instead of trying to convince us that there isn't one), no one is going to give you an ear in this.

I'm serious.

There are too many of them women in burqah's and Islam is a threat.

That isn't what I said. I was pointing out the fact that there is a growing Muslim population where I live. That's it. I said nothing about a threat other than what I mentioned above.

A "sleeper" could very well be registered at my college. Do you deny this?

The vast majority of muslims in this country live peaceably with the rest of us and those who follow Islam in this country don't commit violence at any level greater than anyone else.

I never claimed otherwise.

I just wanna make sure we are talking about how to deal with "Islamic Terrorism" and not just Islam...because alot of people struggle with the distinction.

That's what I was trying to say.....

Politically, we should not allow anything that threatens our country - and Islam is a threat. Look at the stronghold they have in Minnesota, I believe it is? Or is it Michigan? . . .

Is Islam a threat...or is it Islamic terrorists? What is this great threat in Michigan/Minnesota?

In the grand scheme of things, Islam is a threat.

I just remembered - it's Dearborn, Michigan.

Jihad is a radical branch, true. But Muslims have just as much a desire to convert the world to Islam as Christians desire to bring the world to Jesus. The difference is the world is submitting to their pressure (i.e. the Danish cartoons) while Christianity is allowed to be trashed.

They are succeeding in making cultural changes around the world.

And it really did all begin with 9/11.

Muslims are going to college? With normal people?!?! Islamic garb? Is that garb offensive to you?

Again, I never said it was an offense. I was talking about the growing population, and one evidence I have for that.

...It is NOT what we might have to deal with...its HOW we deal with it.

That's what I was saying.

As for what you were saying though - and yes that's awesome what you did with the guy you mentioned - but in all these examples you gave none of them were a personal threat to you, were they?

As an instructor, I have to consider "what if" scenarios - i.e. what if one or more gunmen start shooting people in school? What if a bomb goes off? If I'm teaching a lab at the time, how will I protect my students? I'm a small, weak, female with no fight training whatsoever.

But again - I'm not saying there are threats at my school, just that there could be. And I don't treat every Muslim I see as a threat. In fact, I don't treat any that way. It's the possibility that there might be one or more - will any signs be manifested and recognized before people are killed? (Like the signs missed with this army guy.) What if one of my students is a "sleeper"? I'd feel horrible afterward about the whole thing.

I'm not about fear, hatred, whatever. But you can't lay aside vigilance for the sake of the world's idea of peace.

..The question is, how are we gonna fight that struggle with Islam's false ideology? I think most Christians KNOW the right answer in their hearts.

And this is part of the point I was trying to express - I was hoping that both sides could see the alternative perspective for what it is (obviously I failed on the side I was hoping you would see - let's see how the other side responds to the points you agreed with....).

Aren't you tired of reports around the world of Christians being helpless victims all the time - i.e. Sudan, India, etc.? Do you want us to share their fate?

I think of the movie The Mission. One priest responded through peace and everyone with him got slaughtered. Another priest joined with the tribesmen who wanted to fight back. They all died fighting. Neither side saved the Mission or its people.

So while your perspective is pointing out why the fighting doesn't work, I'm not seeing how letting them do as they will and taking it is going to do any good either.