Shooting at Fort Hood

[ted]

My dear friend, what are our choices?

-Eliminate (contain) all Soldiers who are muslim until the War on Terror is officially declared complete?

-Contain all muslim citizens as we did the Japanese during WWII?

We are also engaged in N. Korea, shall we contain all Koreans until the matter is solved? How about Chinese Soldiers? We also are engaged in a War on Drugs and heavily battling illegal aliens on the Border with Mexico, do all Soldiers of Mexican descent have to be monitored and contained?

It's a line we all walk while in the Military. We fully expect those that take the oath of enlistment, or accept a commission, or accept a warrant appointment, to preform their duties honorably while we are in uniform. There is no real way to realistically contain an entire race or religion within the ranks as a matter of precaution. I wish there was a magic wand we could wave so that anyone who would pose a safety risk would be auto-caught before something like this happens, but there isn't.

In this case, there were hazy indicators leading up to it, and maybe someone could have done more. I liken this one more closely to an incident that happened over ten years ago at Ft Bragg than I do a terrorist attack.

In the Ft Bragg case, SGT William Kreutzer (sp?) killed a number of soldiers in the early morning during their PT session. He was a white man, btw. Under the same circumstances, should we have then contained all white men in the service until we figured out more?

Now don't get me wrong. I am angered by this tragedy that happened at Ft Hood. The building that it happened in was directly across the street from where my old unit processed on their way overseas just a few months ago. I was in that same building and know the layout, and the normal every day hustle that goes on in there. It's very personal to me this time, as was the incident that happened at Ft Bragg because I was there on post that morning too.

However, all indications thus far point to a lone gunman who had mental issues and attacked out of rage when he could no longer contain his emotions. It's sick, it's nasty, and it's tragic, but the one thing it's not turning out to be, is an act of designed terrorism, planned and organized by anyone but him. The addition of the "muslim" aspect, in my opinion so far, is secondary.

You all know me, and how passionate I am about containing muslim aggression in the world. I recently retired after just about 20 years and did what I could to do my part while I was in. If there was even a hint of classic terrorism to blame in this incident, I would call it out in a heartbeat.

Mass murders are mostly carried out by white men, in fact. Look at the Luby's Restaurant killings in the neighboring town of Killeen. There are incidents where white men are not involved though, such as the sniper killings around the Washington DC area some ten years or so ago, which involved a former military man and a teenager. If we were to follow the wisdom set forth in this thread, we should have contained all black men and teenagers after those killings, too.

There's just no way to cast a suspicious eye on all muslim Soldiers as a result of this incident for the most part. While there may be some who we should watch as a natural part of this war, all indications so far in this case point to mental illness mixed with some religious coloring of an individual. I want to emphasize my use of the word individual, btw.

It's not 9/11, the USS Cole, the Beirut Marine Barracks, or a car bombing- it's more like another mass murder along the lines of any typical Postal worker incident, or sexual driven murderer. It's an individual who happened to use his religious beliefs as a motivator in an act of self destruction which was a result of his personal frustrations, not a well thought out, planned event directed by a higher proponent. Yes, he planned it to a point in a hurry, but it's not the same thing as the "terrorism" we are fighting around the world.

Until I see evidence of some other indication, I believe he acted alone and fits the mold of a classic killer who acts out of frustration along the lines of what we see all too many times in America. There are indicators that he wanted to tie in his military service and religious beliefs into the matter, but it still doesn't fit the mold of what we understand a muslim terrorist to be, such as the ones we are fighting over seas.

As to his military requirements, he received his doctorate as a result of the Military paying for his school. Normally, when the Military pays for your school, you owe the Military a certain number of years of service as a trade off. There are incidents, which are handled on an individual case basis, where you can resign your Commission before the required number of years of service are completed. Usually, you would pay back the cost of the schooling, minus the number of years served, under a formula of payment.

However, those cases are usually not in favor of the individual Officer. In other words, it takes quite a bit for the Military to release someone or accept a resignation, especially during a war time environment.

There are rumors out now that report he wanted out of the service, but I haven't seen any kind of paper work indicating he officially pursued to retire his commission. Who knows, it may be that he did and the Military just hasn't released it yet. Regardless, his frustrations no matter what they were, cannot justify what he did. He is not the victim in this. That said, we cannot rake the military and cut out anyone who is frustrated, even if they are muslim.

Personally, I think there were strong indicators that should have raised some eyebrows and kept him from a deployment out of concern for the safety of others with this guy. A number of factors come into play, but you don't usually catch them all and have time to put it all together before something like this happens though. If we could, these things would be prevented every time.

I don't know. A bunch of pudding is going to fly with this case in the coming weeks. I just feel that we are not at the point where we should contain all Military members who are muslim based on this incident. It's just not indicative of an underlying wave of potential, coordinated violence which is imminent at the hands of Soldiers who are muslim. If anything, the facts support quite the opposite. Although there are some muslim Military members who are still in uniform and are against our war aggainst muslim aggression, the overwhelming majority of them are true American patriots, fighting along side of us under a flag they are willing to die for. They recognize what is on the horizon and have pledged alligiance to America, not the twisted ideals that form muslim-based terrorism.

What more can you want from the person in your foxhole?

If this incident had been more widespread, and we saw a coordinated attack on numerous posts and bases, all at the hands of Military members who were muslim, and it was revealed that it was a planned attack, I would say lock every muslim in America up until we cleared the debris and figured out what was going on for sure......which in my mind will take the rest of their lives......but still...

t.

How many of these examples you have give have screamed "god is great" as they killed? There is a big difference between murdering for political and/or psychological reasons and doing it in the name of some god, believing that you will immediately go to heaven.

I can name a few groups who hide behind supposed religious beliefs to justify their murder, most prominent being the KKK, but when you think about it, who really cares why people hide behind such reasons? Murder is murder no matter the reason or flavor. Muslims yelling "god is great" is no uglier than someone else yelling "String that n*#&@ up!"

The motivations come in many flavors and no one false justification is worse than the other. Wrong is wrong either way.

t.

[nebula]

Nope, I don't deny it... there could be a sleeper at your college. Could be a serial killer too...do you profile every single, white, male as a possible murderer? Or do you save the profiling for guys and gals who wear muslim 'garb' and have arabic names? Could be a rapist, a pedophile, a gangbanger, or just a guy who is tired of being lonely and picked on. Do you deny this? How do you manage to profile all these people in your classes? Or...is it just the muslims that need profiled. (And yes, I know you didn't say that...but your comments beg the question.)

Where are you getting that I ever "profile" anyone? Can you believe it possible I think objectively and abstractly without mentally strip-searching people?

A + B = C

The knowledge that sleepers are being spread around + the awareness of an increasing Muslim population in my community = there could be a sleeper here.

Do I suspect every Muslim I see as being a sleeper? No! Do I fear every Muslim I see might be a sleeper? No! The thought may cross my mind once in a while, but it doesn't rule me. I say a prayer and move on.

[Axxman]

mormonism is a greater threat to our way of life than islam?

really?

Oh Yeah...like I said, Islam is a hotbed of extremism right now...but times change. This oath was required by Brigham Young...

"You do solemnly swear, in the presence of Almighty God, his holy angels, and these witnesses, that you will avenge the blood of Joseph Smith upon this nation; and so teach your children; and that you will from this day henceforth and forever begin and carry out hostility against this nation, and keep the same a profound secret now and ever. So help you God."

They don't do this one anymore...times change. But trust me, they have all kinds of plans for America. I still love 'em though...

[ted]

lol

I refuse to believe you don't know that homosexuals are in the military. All of your years in service and you never encountered one?

Homosexuals are indeed allowed in the military- they are just not allowed to state that they are homosexuals at this point. This rule, inacted while President Clinton was in office, was a compromise designed mostly to save face for Clinton, although it didn't fix a thing one way or the other. However, there are active bills in Congress as we speak which will finally strike down this law and give homosexuals freedom to fully announce their sexual preference without detrimental actions against them.

t.

Finally, huh?

lol nice try, but don't go there. By "finally", I mean in their eyes, not mine. In other words, this is something they are looking forward to, not me. It's a time reference thing, not an agreement thing. Personally I don't feel that homosexuality is compatible with military service, but hey, that's just me.

t.

[ted]

How many of these examples you have give have screamed "god is great" as they killed? There is a big difference between murdering for political and/or psychological reasons and doing it in the name of some god, believing that you will immediately go to heaven.

So far from what I've seen about this man, I am seeing a lone man using his religion to express his anger and justify his killing spree.

Like the man who killed the abortion doctor.

Unless/ until evidence comes out that points to the jihad movement, I'll keep it as that.

BAM! Exactly the point I'm trying to make in these threads. Nothing more, nothing less.

t.

[nikki1]

Axxman

yadayadayada...

That rule applies to EVERY criminal. In America 85% of all serial killers are white males who kill approx. 200 people each year...and guess what...they are disguised as regular every day peaceful human beings to slip under the radar. You know why we don't actively profile and monitor and violate every white male in America inspite of their high kill rate??? Because it would be wrong and ludicrous to even suggest such a thing.

You can keep your serial killer stats, Axxman, I'm not impressed. I wonder if you know the difference between a white serial killer and a muslim jihadist? Read below.....

Criminals who are up to no good do this stuff everyday...but you only wanna pick on muslims.

It was a muslim jihadist who yelled "Allahu Akhbar" before the shooting rampage, not a white serial killer. Get your facts straight.

Blessings,

Nikki

[nebula]

Of course there are extremist muslims that wish to do us harm. Denying that fact would be as ludicrous as denying that most muslims are not extremists. Is there a threat from extremists muslims? Sure, but its not like the biggest threat in the book. I work in a world of threats...I guarantee you that looking for muslims is way down on my list.

Unless, of course, Islam has something to do with the fulfilling of prophecies in Revelation.

But that's a whole other can of worms, isn't it?

What is the solution? I know what it is not...its not treating innocent people like they are guilty. Its not monitoring, profiling, or kicking them out of the country or any other number of civil rights violations that have been mentioned. Whatever we do needs to be done right and it needs to be focused on people that are actually doing something wrong.

Well, Axx, there's an expression about criticism without a constructive alternative is merely complaining.

It would do this debate a whole world of good if you could offer some constructive alternatives.

[nebula]

So far from what I've seen about this man, I am seeing a lone man using his religion to express his anger and justify his killing spree.

Like the man who killed the abortion doctor.

Unless/ until evidence comes out that points to the jihad movement, I'll keep it as that.

BAM! Exactly the point I'm trying to make in these threads. Nothing more, nothing less.

t.

You're welcome, your Highness.

[Axxman]

Where are you getting that I ever "profile" anyone? Can you believe it possible I think objectively and abstractly without mentally strip-searching people?

Do I suspect every Muslim I see as being a sleeper? No! Do I fear every Muslim I see might be a sleeper? No! The thought may cross my mind once in a while, but it doesn't rule me. I say a prayer and move on.

I tried to make it clear that I don't think you do that. I want to stress that I totally appreciate your approach to this topic..i am agreeing with ALOT that you are saying. I was trying to make a point about how we can't be ruled by unrational fear...but that its okay to be prepared. I am certain that you can't possibly profile everyone and maintain a normal life...and I don't believe you do that.

[ted]

No, that is just how YOU are spinning it. You are long on spin, but short on substance.

Substance falls on the deaf ears of hatred. You cannot reason with emotion. You cannot make sense of dispair. Fear is the rationalization of the uninformed.

About 90% of the posts on this topic are based on unrational fear and hatred for muslims. The heinous nature of the act is bringing people to react more with emotion and dispair and not really a reasoned and informed response.

Ted is about one of the most loving and reasonable guys on Worthy Boards...and the 'chrsitians' are ready to burn him at the stake over his comments...lol.

Why, because it doesn't fit in your particular version of PC? And nobody wants to butn Ted, just get him to stop drinking the PC kool-aid.

*Edited after a nap.

My comments in the original post here were even more dumb than me being accused of drinking PC "Kool-aid"

t.

Edited November 9, 2009 by ted