Baptism

[OneLight]

How can that be? The majority of people who repent and accept Christ as their savior are not around a body of water. I agree htat it is an outward sign of an inward event, but I disagree with them usually occurring simultaneously.

According to the pattern we see in the NT when one believed he/she was immediacy baptized. On the day of Pentecost those 3000 souls who believed and repented as they “received his word” were baptized that same day. And in the conversion of the eunuch the gospel of Christ was preached and he immediately said – “here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized.”

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall

receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…Save yourselves from this crooked generation. They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2)

And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized…And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. (Acts 8)

That is not simultaneously. In every beginning, a person first believes and then, after some time, they are baptized. It does not happen at the same time.

[leoxiii]

I don't really have any specific scripture to quote on the subject, but it does seem to me from everything I have read, that Baptism is a ritual cleansing as was done when giong into the temple, and this cleansing prepares you for the Holy Spirit to come and clean out our insides on a spiritual level.

That is a pretty good way to put it.

Baptism is the outward sign of an interior event.

But the two usually occur simultaneously.

How can that be? The majority of people who repent and accept Christ as their savior are not around a body of water. I agree htat it is an outward sign of an inward event, but I disagree with them usually occurring simultaneously.

You are basing that on the erroneous assumption that Baptism does not produce an ontological change in the person.

That is why Jesus says in Mark 16:16 that one must believe AND be baptized in order to be saved. He then states that whoever does not believe cannot be saved. Jesus procl;aims to us that there are two conditions for salvation: belief and Baptism, but only one condition for condemnation: unbelief. Belief without Baptism cannot save a person just as Baptism without belief cannot save a person, even though they undergo that ontological change (cf. Romans 6:3-7). That is the clear meaning of the text.

Salvation only comes through Christ, not baptism. What happens is when you make an outward profession or profession, your faith increases, so this can happen when baptized. As you can tell from my previous post, I was under the thought that You were referring to salvation and baptism were simultaneously. For that, I apologize if I was wrong ... was I?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

The Scriptures cannot be more clear.

Baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is an absolute necessity of salvation.

It is Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which makes the believer "born again".

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In which of these verses of Scripture does it say that Baptism is apart from Christ, and not for the remission of sins?

[other one]

I don't really have any specific scripture to quote on the subject, but it does seem to me from everything I have read, that Baptism is a ritual cleansing as was done when giong into the temple, and this cleansing prepares you for the Holy Spirit to come and clean out our insides on a spiritual level.

That is a pretty good way to put it.

Baptism is the outward sign of an interior event.

But the two usually occur simultaneously.

How can that be? The majority of people who repent and accept Christ as their savior are not around a body of water. I agree htat it is an outward sign of an inward event, but I disagree with them usually occurring simultaneously.

I agree that they, at least these days, don't seem to occurr at the same time. My pastor agrees and says it would be rare for that to happen today.

[other one]

I don't really have any specific scripture to quote on the subject, but it does seem to me from everything I have read, that Baptism is a ritual cleansing as was done when giong into the temple, and this cleansing prepares you for the Holy Spirit to come and clean out our insides on a spiritual level.

That is a pretty good way to put it.

Baptism is the outward sign of an interior event.

But the two usually occur simultaneously.

How can that be? The majority of people who repent and accept Christ as their savior are not around a body of water. I agree htat it is an outward sign of an inward event, but I disagree with them usually occurring simultaneously.

You are basing that on the erroneous assumption that Baptism does not produce an ontological change in the person.

That is why Jesus says in Mark 16:16 that one must believe AND be baptized in order to be saved. He then states that whoever does not believe cannot be saved. Jesus procl;aims to us that there are two conditions for salvation: belief and Baptism, but only one condition for condemnation: unbelief. Belief without Baptism cannot save a person just as Baptism without belief cannot save a person, even though they undergo that ontological change (cf. Romans 6:3-7). That is the clear meaning of the text.

I would have to disagree here:

Rom 10:8-13

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

NKJV

A positive shall be saved and not one mention of baptism.. and before you tell me that's just theory let me tell you that I had a friend in High School who did just this and got killed in a car wreck the night before he was to be baptized.... it would be very very difficult for you to convince me that he is going to hell over not being baptized.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people don't have to get baptized, for the Lord told us to do so..... but baptism is not a saving act in itself, or Romans would not be a valid scripture.

[CSLewis]

Baptism can occur before belief.

[leoxiii]

A positive shall be saved and not one mention of baptism

And yet Jesus clearly says that one must be baptized in order to be saved.

Can Scripture contradict Scripture?

I say "NO!"

Here is the hermaneutic I use:

If one part of Scripture contains more information than another part of Scripture, then I understand the Scripture with less information to be edified and clarified by the Scripture with more information. I do not understand the Scripture with more information to be made null and void by the Scripture with less information.

That is, IMHO, a good hermaneutic, and one which can be used when reading any writing, not just Sacred Scripture alone.

[Smalcald]

Jesus says only unbelief condemns.

But indeed we should baptize for the remission of sins.

I think it is allowing for the case of the thief on the cross, for the random times that true believers do not have the means or access to baptism even though they strongly desire baptism.

[leoxiii]

Jesus says only unbelief condemns.

Then why did He mention Baptism? And why did He tell Nicodemus that a man must be born again of water and the Holy Spirit? Why mention the water if it is not necessary?

But indeed we should baptize for the remission of sins.

And how is one saved without the remission of sins?

I think it is allowing for the case of the thief on the cross, for the random times that true believers do not have the means or access to baptism even though they strongly desire baptism.

The TotC was saved under the Old Law, that is, He put His faith in the Saviour foretold, and awaited Jesus in the Limbo of the Fathers with Abraham and all the other patriarchs and matriarchs.

The Church has always recognized those extraordinary circumstances and does indeed teach as true doctrine that there is such a thing as the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Blood. But such cannot apply to someone who sees Baptism as a superfluous addendum to his faith.

[OneLight]

Salvation only comes through Christ, not baptism. What happens is when you make an outward profession or profession, your faith increases, so this can happen when baptized. As you can tell from my previous post, I was under the thought that You were referring to salvation and baptism were simultaneously. For that, I apologize if I was wrong ... was I?

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

The Scriptures cannot be more clear.

Baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is an absolute necessity of salvation.

It is Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which makes the believer "born again".

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In which of these verses of Scripture does it say that Baptism is apart from Christ, and not for the remission of sins?

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;

it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Acts 2:21

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’

Romans 10:13

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Salvation does not come from works and never has. This is one of the false doctrines of the RCC. Baptism is obedience to the Lord and happens after salvation, when the Holy Spirit has changed the person enough to become obedient. Being "born again" is the work of the Holy Spirit changing your life, not baptism.

Acts 2:38 (New King James Version)

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, the bible that was written for your church changed the original words, much like the JW's did in their bible, to conform to their doctrine. Your bible changed the word "repent" to "penance". This is one reason why you feel the teaching of the Pope is correct ... they had the scriptures falsified to match their false doctrine.

ANswer this ... if a person accepts Christ on their death bed and has not time before they pass to be baptized, what happens to them? Are they saved?

[Smalcald]

Jesus says only unbelief condemns.

Then why did He mention Baptism? And why did He tell Nicodemus that a man must be born again of water and the Holy Spirit? Why mention the water if it is not necessary?

But indeed we should baptize for the remission of sins.

And how is one saved without the remission of sins?

I think it is allowing for the case of the thief on the cross, for the random times that true believers do not have the means or access to baptism even though they strongly desire baptism.

The TotC was saved under the Old Law, that is, He put His faith in the Saviour foretold, and awaited Jesus in the Limbo of the Fathers with Abraham and all the other patriarchs and matriarchs.

The Church has always recognized those extraordinary circumstances and does indeed teach as true doctrine that there is such a thing as the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Blood. But such cannot apply to someone who sees Baptism as a superfluous addendum to his faith.

Yeah it is interesting isn't it.

If we look at Mark 16. Jesus says both, He says that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved, but then He goes on to say those who do not believe will be condemned, He does not say that those who are not baptized will be condemned.

There are many cases of death bed conversions, battlefield conversions, babies, and so forth who simply do not have the ability to go through baptism before physical death. Christ allows for that. However I agree, baptism is NOT an addendum to faith or simply an outward sign or symbol, baptism is real.