If Baptism is required for salvation

[kross]

No, I am not. Works come after salvation.

But isn't "belief" a work - a "work of God"? Doesn't belief come "before" salvation - "without faith it is impossible to please God." Surely we must work the works of God.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the

work of God

, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28, 29)

The definition of work, without looking in the dictionary, is the effort required to move an object. Belief and faith are not works. Actions are works. Salvation doesn't come because you go to the front of the church for an alter call, you go for an alter call because salvation came.

You ask for baptism, because GOD saved you. HE did the work of saving you, you did not have to do anything. After that, you reply with obedience befitting a child of a loving FATHER. You repent because of conviction, you confess because of salvation, and you get baptised because of obedience. No work required to get saved, works come from being saved.

[kross]

The thief on the cross remains a moot point

[kross]

A. Let's get this out of the way right off the bat: I am not your friend.

That is a pity. Surely love and disagreement can exist together.

I think you should kiss and make up

[kross]

I think this is a very good question.

I personally support biblical baptism by emmersion, but since Ido not believe one must be baptised to be saved, i do not feel that there is really a wrong war to do it, because if there is a right way and a wrong way there must be a reson why they are right and wrong.

That was my point in asking, but it turns out that there are those who truly believe the spinkled are not saved. Which boggles my mind. And there are those who believe Baptism is required but ignor the truth of Baptism being emersion. Which also boggles my mind.

[OneLight]

For days we butted heads because you were adding works to salvation. First you would say that one needed to be baptized, then you would say that the Cross was enough. Maybe you should reread your posts over the past week ...

But works of God do come before salvation - this is what I have always maintained. That is not adding works of merit to salvation - that is obedience to God's commands.

Care to tell me what you are specifically talking about so this does not spiral into another long discussion. God is always working before, during and after salvation, unless you are talking what we do in Him.

[Smalcald]

To me it is like this.

Christ is there; He is at Baptism in a special way, so why would we run from Christ, that would make no sense, if we had faith.

Only unbelief condemns us, but a sign of unbelief would be a total rejection of Christ and His chosen methods. Baptism is a command of Christ.

[kross]

As I have been reading this thread, and praying, I think I have found some understanding. While I am certain that this will still be rejected by those who choose to not agree, I think I will accept it as fact and move on.

JESUS is quoted as saying Believe and be Baptised. But believe in what? JESUS is talking to and teaching those under the law. In other words, JESUS is teaching the baptism of John. Someothing that, as I understand it, was a part of the Jewish law/tradition.

Paul writes to Hebrews, the Jewish believers, that they are saved through water just as Noah. IS he teaching something new to them? No. He is teaching them the same thing about baptism for JEws in relation to what was already part of their tradition/law.

Peter stood up at Penacaust and proclaimed the gospel to those who were there for the fest. He was not want to go to the gentiles and was preaching something to them that was already part of their traditions/laws. Even though there were those who were "Friends of Israel", believers from other nations.

I guess my point is, I see a patern of Baptism being taught as part of the Jewish law/tradition. What I fail to see is a commandment that would indicate baptism being required for salvation for those who were never under the law/traditions of Israel.

I agree that Christians should be baptised and I have only known one, on another thread, who would actually refuse to do so. We are commanded to disciple and baptise. Still, it seems to me there is a context to the scriptures being used to say JESUS commanded it as a requirement of salvation that is being overlooked.

Just a thought. Please, do not take the time to argue the point, I am just sharing a thought.

[kross]

Christians have always accepted sprinkling.

I would like to know when sprinkling became acceptable to the Roman Catholics, and some other closely related denomination? I did a little research and found that one of the Roman Catholic Saints did not agree with sprinkling, but full immersion.

Hippolytus' account of the baptismal service

When the person being baptized goes down into the water, he who baptizes him, putting his hand on him, shall say: "Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty?" And the person being baptized shall say: "I believe." Then holding his hand on his head, he shall baptize him once. And then he shall say: "Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was born of the Virgin Mary, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and was dead and buried, and rose again the third day, alive from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead?" And when he says: "I believe," he is baptized again. And again he shall say: "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, in the holy church, and the resurrection of the body?" The person being baptized shall say: "I believe," and then he is baptized a third time.

-- Hippolytus, early third century

I cannot find that particular quote anywhere in the writings of Saint Hippolytus.

Could you please provide which writing of his it is taken from?

The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus 21:12-18

I found a commentary on it. It is taken from a Baptismal Liturgy (a Mass of Baptismads), and is only attributed to Hippolytus. It seems to be a composite of several writings from divers regions. Nonetheless, it holds the basic outline of Christian Baptism: rejection of the devil and being accepted intot eh family of God.

But, as to when the Roman Church accepted sprinkling, it was from the very beginning. Sprinkling is mentioned in the Didache, a writing from the 1st century attributed to the Apostles.

The Didache is not scripture and only proves that you follow your church doctrine above scripture. There is nowhere in scripture that shows that sprinkling or infant baptism is correct.

I edited this post to include another unorthodox practice, which you mentioned part of. They all had to undergo a form of exorcism by denouncing Satan and be anointed with the Oil of Exorcism. IF they have already accepted Jesus as their Savior, and His Spirit dwells in them, why is it that they feel tell every evil spirit to leave them when light and darkness cannot live in the same vessel? Here are the words.

21 At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When

they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring

or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be

baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there

are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or

someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women,

after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any

foreign object with themselves down into the water.

6At the time determined for baptism, the bishop shall give thanks over some oil, which he

puts in a vessel. It is called the Oil of Thanksgiving. 7He shall take some more oil and

exorcise it. It is called the Oil of Exorcism. 8A deacon shall hold the Oil of Exorcism and

stand on the left. Another deacon shall hold the Oil of Thanksgiving and stand on the right.

9When the elder takes hold of each of them who are to receive baptism, he shall tell each

of them to renounce, saying, "I renounce you Satan, all your servicea, and all your works."

10After he has said this, he shall anoint each with the Oil of Exorcism, saying, "Let every

evil spirit depart from you." 11Then, after these things, the bishop passes each of them on

nude to the elder who stands at the water. They shall stand in the water naked. A deacon,

likewise, will go down with them into the water. 12When each of them to be baptized has

gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on each of them, asking, "Do

you believe in God the Father Almighty?" 13And the one being baptized shall answer, "I

believe." 14He shall then baptize each of them once, laying his hand upon each of their

heads. 15Then he shall ask, "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was

born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and

died, and rose on the third day living from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat

down at the right hand of the Father, the one coming to judge the living and the dead?"

16When each has answered, "I believe," he shall baptize a second time. 17Then he shall

ask, "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Church and the resurrection of the

flesh?" 18Then each being baptized shall answer, "I believe." And thus let him baptize the

third time.

This sounds like quite the warped orgie sort of church. This would have appealed to my flesh at one time. What church is this from?

[OneLight]

Christians have always accepted sprinkling.

I would like to know when sprinkling became acceptable to the Roman Catholics, and some other closely related denomination? I did a little research and found that one of the Roman Catholic Saints did not agree with sprinkling, but full immersion.

Hippolytus' account of the baptismal service

When the person being baptized goes down into the water, he who baptizes him, putting his hand on him, shall say: "Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty?" And the person being baptized shall say: "I believe." Then holding his hand on his head, he shall baptize him once. And then he shall say: "Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was born of the Virgin Mary, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and was dead and buried, and rose again the third day, alive from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead?" And when he says: "I believe," he is baptized again. And again he shall say: "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, in the holy church, and the resurrection of the body?" The person being baptized shall say: "I believe," and then he is baptized a third time.

-- Hippolytus, early third century

I cannot find that particular quote anywhere in the writings of Saint Hippolytus.

Could you please provide which writing of his it is taken from?

The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus 21:12-18

I found a commentary on it. It is taken from a Baptismal Liturgy (a Mass of Baptismads), and is only attributed to Hippolytus. It seems to be a composite of several writings from divers regions. Nonetheless, it holds the basic outline of Christian Baptism: rejection of the devil and being accepted intot eh family of God.

But, as to when the Roman Church accepted sprinkling, it was from the very beginning. Sprinkling is mentioned in the Didache, a writing from the 1st century attributed to the Apostles.

The Didache is not scripture and only proves that you follow your church doctrine above scripture. There is nowhere in scripture that shows that sprinkling or infant baptism is correct.

I edited this post to include another unorthodox practice, which you mentioned part of. They all had to undergo a form of exorcism by denouncing Satan and be anointed with the Oil of Exorcism. IF they have already accepted Jesus as their Savior, and His Spirit dwells in them, why is it that they feel tell every evil spirit to leave them when light and darkness cannot live in the same vessel? Here are the words.

21 At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When

they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring

or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be

baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there

are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or

someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women,

after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any

foreign object with themselves down into the water.

6At the time determined for baptism, the bishop shall give thanks over some oil, which he

puts in a vessel. It is called the Oil of Thanksgiving. 7He shall take some more oil and

exorcise it. It is called the Oil of Exorcism. 8A deacon shall hold the Oil of Exorcism and

stand on the left. Another deacon shall hold the Oil of Thanksgiving and stand on the right.

9When the elder takes hold of each of them who are to receive baptism, he shall tell each

of them to renounce, saying, "I renounce you Satan, all your servicea, and all your works."

10After he has said this, he shall anoint each with the Oil of Exorcism, saying, "Let every

evil spirit depart from you." 11Then, after these things, the bishop passes each of them on

nude to the elder who stands at the water. They shall stand in the water naked. A deacon,

likewise, will go down with them into the water. 12When each of them to be baptized has

gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on each of them, asking, "Do

you believe in God the Father Almighty?" 13And the one being baptized shall answer, "I

believe." 14He shall then baptize each of them once, laying his hand upon each of their

heads. 15Then he shall ask, "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was

born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and

died, and rose on the third day living from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat

down at the right hand of the Father, the one coming to judge the living and the dead?"

16When each has answered, "I believe," he shall baptize a second time. 17Then he shall

ask, "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Church and the resurrection of the

flesh?" 18Then each being baptized shall answer, "I believe." And thus let him baptize the

third time.

This sounds like quite the warped orgie sort of church. This would have appealed to my flesh at one time. What church is this from?

Roman Catholic

[kross]

As I have been reading this thread, and praying, I think I have found some understanding. While I am certain that this will still be rejected by those who choose to not agree, I think I will accept it as fact and move on.

JESUS is quoted as saying Believe and be Baptised. But believe in what? JESUS is talking to and teaching those under the law. In other words, JESUS is teaching the baptism of John. Someothing that, as I understand it, was a part of the Jewish law/tradition.

Paul writes to Hebrews, the Jewish believers, that they are saved through water just as Noah. IS he teaching something new to them? No. He is teaching them the same thing about baptism for JEws in relation to what was already part of their tradition/law.

Peter stood up at Penacaust and proclaimed the gospel to those who were there for the fest. He was not want to go to the gentiles and was preaching something to them that was already part of their traditions/laws. Even though there were those who were "Friends of Israel", believers from other nations.

I guess my point is, I see a patern of Baptism being taught as part of the Jewish law/tradition. What I fail to see is a commandment that would indicate baptism being required for salvation for those who were never under the law/traditions of Israel.

I agree that Christians should be baptised and I have only known one, on another thread, who would actually refuse to do so. We are commanded to disciple and baptise. Still, it seems to me there is a context to the scriptures being used to say JESUS commanded it as a requirement of salvation that is being overlooked.

Just a thought. Please, do not take the time to argue the point, I am just sharing a thought.

Not to argue but just for clarification